Church-Wellesley Village

[OttoSchloss]

I think there's a danger of seeing the drag queens involved in the U.S. Stonewall riots as standard bearers and leaders in our struggle. None of the local, out, gay politicians I knew of in early to mid '70s Toronto fit that description. Mostly, they were nice, polite, university educated types from the chattering classes who didn't particularly stand out from the crowd. With other like minded individuals they set up and expand a political power base, knew Robert's Rules of Order pretty well, lobbied elected politicians for expanded civil liberties for gays and lesbians, and changes to the human rights acts, to employment law, and to descriminatory hiring - and firing - practices, that sort of thing. Some rented warehouse space on Duncan Street and put out a magazine called The Body Politic, with a Gay Archives in the same building, for instance. And there was the Glad Day Bookshop, too. Dedicatedly slutty at times like the rest of the population, yes of course, but you can also think of these founding fathers of openly-gay Toronto as rather old fashioned stand up stand up for Jesus missionaries, with a certain dull, Toronto Presbyterian earnestness as well. Their strength was indeed their visibility - the ability to rally smallish groups of protesters for the occasional march, for instance, or get the rest of us to show up at a public meeting to rally support for a cause such as the reinstatement of John Damien who had been fired for being gay - but few were raven haired crossdressers ... sadly!

Flamboyant doesn't always mean drag and I wasn't singling them out for their courage. But often "drag" people are maligned in the gay community for their unabashed outness and outrageousness. And so are mincing queens and men that refer to eachother as "sisters" etc. My point being that when gays start deciding for each other what is acceptable and unacceptable behavior then the fight will have been lost. Sometimes the stereotype has to fight a little harder and experiences a little more of the discrimination some of us all have felt.

 

[Urban Shocker]

Oh yes I agree. I'd sometimes pass by the St. Charles Tavern on Halloween nights in the early '70s to watch the straights ( and probably quite a few closeted gays ... ) throwing eggs and insults at the drag queens. If anything, it reinforced the idea that their struggle was ours too - the meaning and importance of solidarity.

 

[DC83]

Fab Mag Op-Ed

There is an interesting, and insightful (yet true), Op-Ed in this week's Fab re: Toronto Gays & Relationships Cooool might be interested in! Check it out, buddy!

EDIT: FOUND IT!

Toronto's Beverly Hills Bitches

I am a non-Caucasian immigrant who moved to Toronto two and-a-half years back. I have lived in Kuala Lumpur, Mumbai, Singapore and San Francisco. I was pretty happy in SF and had a job with Apple. It was difficult to get a US green card so I was advised to move to Canada. I got a great job in Toronto so I moved.

Before I did, friends told me I wouldn’t be very happy. “Toronto gays are like Atlanta mongrel bitches, they think they are Beverly Hills Chihuahuas,” they said.

Once in Toronto I understood what they meant. I tried my best to get into the social circle but there were always people willing to go to bed with me but not to acknowledge me in public. People acknowledged me one-on-one but not in groups or with others. People acknowledged me at place X but not at place Y.

I thought it was just me but other non-Caucasians told the same story. I thought it was racism but then Caucasians who don’t fit the Toronto definition of ‘hot’ told the story too. I thought it was just racism and body fascism but then further observation suggested that even the hot people have a tendency to drop a less hot man if they have a chance with a guy who ranks just a little more hot.

I have of course given up and am just waiting for my citizenship so I can take the first flight back to SF. There, if you see someone walking the dog in the park two days in a row, and he/she starts talking to you on the third day. I wonder if there is any study on how such a large mass of people can exist without basic human dignity, friendship, loyalty, humility, etc? I know the suicide rate in Toronto is among the highest in the world but I’m just curious to know how fab, as a representative of the gay populace, feels about all this.

I know you won’t print this letter and I don’t really care. I just needed to ask this before I left the city.

— Sajan Sharma
http://www.fabmagazine.com/index.html

Comments? Agree? Disagree?

 

[threnody]

I certainly agree that it can take a long time to built up a stable of strong friendships here. I moved here at age 23, white, and decently attractive and it still took me about a year. But shouldn't it take a while to build strong friendships? Friendship to me is serious business, and it takes me quite a while before I really feel like somebody is a close friend.

And I think that's a common attitude here. People form extremely tight friendships . That's great because they (hopefully) have reliable friends that they can count on. I remember going to Hanlan's last summer and each of the cliques from Fly had their own blanket setup so they could chill out together. There was some mingling and waving but it was still like a high school cafeteria.

That kind of environment makes it hard for newcomers. I only have four close friends and I really don't know if I have time for any more. I can see myself rebuffing somebody who is perfectly nice and friendly unless we really click.

It's hard to know exactly what happened with Sajan without having met him. Perhaps he was too forward or something in his disposition turned people off. Or maybe he his only mistake was looking for friendship in the wrong places. You can make friends at Fly (in theory), but if you don't look a certain way you're going to face an uphill battle. Head to Woody's or Zippers and you'll probably have better luck.

 

[Torontovibe]

Oh yes I agree. I'd sometimes pass by the St. Charles Tavern on Halloween nights in the early '70s to watch the straights ( and probably quite a few closeted gays ... ) throwing eggs and insults at the drag queens. If anything, it reinforced the idea that their struggle was ours too - the meaning and importance of solidarity.

Oh, those were the bad old days! I remember seeing that as a young punk and thinking "I'm not coming out of the closet, people will hate me". lol A few short years later, I was out and going to The St. Charles Tavern. (not on a regular basis though, as Boots was more my style) What a sleazy but fascinating place it was. lol One day you would meet the lowest low-life in that place and the next day, a doctor or lawyer. What a diverse crowd.

Toronto is a hard place to make friends. I know many people who have no friends or very few friends. I once read in a Toronto gay mag, that loneliness was voted (in a survey) the number one problem among Toronto gays and I believe it. I have a friend who moved from Montreal to Toronto, for love, and he talks about going back to Montreal every day. He has not had much luck in meeting friends in Toronto, so I'm sure it's a legitimate complaint. I don't think it's that Torontonians are anti-social, I think it's just plain and simple shyness. (or standoffishness) We are way to timid for our own goods.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

There are "friends", and then there are friends. If one equate friendly acquaintances to friendship, one is bound to be disappointed - just because someone talk to you after seeing them walking their dog after the nth day doesn't make them your friend.

AoD

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

Comments? Agree? Disagree?

There's a fair amount of attitude among the younger gay set (not all of course) and Toronto is not exactly the friendliest city in the world on the surface. NYC for example (some like to draw contrasts on this board to other cities so I'll take that liberty here) are generally much friendlier in my experience.

It's interesting that the poster of this article (DC83) is from Hamilton. I spent a couple of years in Hamilton for my job and having grown up in Toronto I quickly became very suspicious of people there as I began to settle in. What I came to learn a short time later was that the merchants in the mall that I was working in were coming over and introducing themselves because they were, well, friendly - not because they wanted something from me or had any kind of an agenda. I quickly made friends with my fellow managers in the city, went to bars, house parties (they're big in Hamilton) and I have to tell you it took some time to get used to people being so open, friendly and genuinely "cool". Coming back to Toronto when my time was done there was like culture shock. It was quite a life lesson contrasting the people of Toronto vs. Hamiltonians.

I'm very lucky that I have a great circle of both casual and close friends. Some of many, many years (decades in some cases) but I also have even more friends who are not so close anymore because of distance, but who I keep up with and see regularly who are from Hamilton decades after moving back here.

I don't know what the problem is with some people in Toronto, are we growing too quickly? Are we too uptight? Do we think we're better than our neighbours to the north, east and west? I don't know. My friends, co-workers and I have had many discussions and debates about this very subject over the years. Perhaps someone taking Sociology could study and write their thesis on this!

I do not believe that the original letter published in FAB has anything to do with racism, simply with the attitude of some of the people of the gay community and Toronto being - to some extent, inhabited by outwardly unfriendly, guarded, insecure or tense people.

Torontonians are good people really but it takes time to crack the surface of many people to really get to know them and discover what's inside.

 

[DC83]

My Assessment

This op-ed is 100% true!

Although I'm young, white and attractive... I have one huge stigma attached to me; I'm from Hamilton!

That automatically means I'm 'Trash' to Toronto Gays, ps.

Keep in mind, most of the gays in Toronto migrated there from (usually) smaller towns. They were opressed, or discriminated against, and forced (per-se) out of town. They have a lot of animosity towards people. They compensate by treating others like crap, and only surrounding themeselves with people with similar attitudes.

I have met some good gay guys in Toronto, albeit most aren't actually from Toronto. I'm dating a guy in Toronto right now, but again he's from an Eastern Suburb.

My opinion is the Author of this article was trying to meet guys the wrong way, or wrong place, or was just as closed-minded himself for perhaps only wanting to chill with one 'type' or whatever.
If you have an open mind, and are outgoing, I can guarantee you'll meet some great people in Toronto.

In regards to Hamilton Gays vs Toronto Gays; all I know is that Hamiltonians are friendly people in general, so that could explain why you had a pleasant experience in my Gorgeous (yet corrupt) City

 

[JasonParis]

While I feel sorry for Sajan Sharma's Toronto experience, I don't really feel it is that indicative of much, except maybe bad luck. For every story like Sharma's there's others that are the complete opposite.

For example, our neighbours are a mixed American/Bali couple who have spent the last 12 years living in very big Asian centres (Beijing, Honk Kong, etc.). Work has brought them to Toronto and they claim they will never leave. They've made more good friends in two years and had some of their best life experiences than in all the years prior. They also speak highly of our standard of living and feel that Toronto is friendly, safe, very gay-positive and has a tonne to offer. This couple seriously has more friends in two years than I've accumulated in my 30-something years.

 

[SunriseChampion]

There is an interesting, and insightful (yet true), Op-Ed in this week's Fab re: Toronto Gays & Relationships Cooool might be interested in! Check it out, buddy!

EDIT: FOUND IT!



Comments? Agree? Disagree?

In my personal experience: agree. No comment necessary. The author said it all for me.

I should add that this pertains, in my experience at least, to quite younge people: 18-24.


and another thing: Torontonians aren't shy or timid but notoriously pretentious. This is magnified in the 18-24 gay male demographic, I swear.

No, seriously, whenever I travel, I always speak highly of my home but without fail find myself just having to mention how pretentious a lot of people are in Toronto. Sigh.

 

[OttoSchloss]

I dunno. I'm always suspicious of people that make these huge generalizations about places and people. I think I'm correct in assuming that often the issue is as much about the person complaining as what he's complaining about.

And I can always understand people's affections for the places they came from since I'm an expat too who longs for my friends in Toronto precisely because that's where I grew up, where I know most people and at a certain age it gets to be a little bit of a chore to constantly meet new people and forge friendships.

I will also say that sometimes what other people consider friendship is a lot shallower than what many other people consider friendship.

Toronto is very similar to London in this regard. Yes you will have acquaintances galore but it takes a long time to get and "in" with people. Or at the very least an effort.

And as far as the author of that article is concerned he seems only interested in forming friendships with the ghetto denizens and not a broader set of individuals.

Anyway, point is: you can't be lazy about friendship especially in a city like Toronto. Even in New York you can meet a thousand friendly people but unless you have time for them and vice versa nothing much is going to come of it except a few words at work or in the park.

Oh and Toronto doesn't have one of the highest suicide rates in the world. Montreal's is higher and Canada doesn't even rank in the top 10. But among immigrants suicide rates tend to be higher than natives (except aboriginals).

 

[Torontovibe]

In my personal experience: agree. No comment necessary. The author said it all for me.

I should add that this pertains, in my experience at least, to quite younge people: 18-24.


and another thing: Torontonians aren't shy or timid but notoriously pretentious. This is magnified in the 18-24 gay male demographic, I swear.

No, seriously, whenever I travel, I always speak highly of my home but without fail find myself just having to mention how pretentious a lot of people are in Toronto. Sigh.

Most of my real friends are in the mid 30's to 50's age range, so I can't speak for the younger crowd, although I've chatted with a lot of disgruntled 20 year olds online. Almost all of my friends are very shy and couldn't pick up a man to save their lives but they are quite nice guys. They go to bars but never talk to anyone. I know when I go to bars, I never see anyone approaching strangers and certainly not me.

When I came out in the 80's, it was very different. I would always meet new people and found it very easy to inter-act in bars. There was never a problem with "attitude" as far as I could tell. It was only after the gay media kept telling us how "fabulous" we were and being gay became respectable, that the mood in the community seemed to change. (and not for the better)

It is much tougher to find your place in Toronto's gay community today. The Internet has played a big part of it. For many younger gays, their only connection to anything gay, is by computer only. I have heard the craziest shit from people online, telling me stories about how all their friends are from the net and they have never talked on the phone or met face-to-face, even though they both live in Toronto. Is that a real friendship? lol I'm telling you, the evil Internet is a big part of it.

 

[OttoSchloss]

And Toronto is hardly unique in this. San Francisco's gay scene is a bit decrepit and thus a little more open. But go to L.A., Chicago, Boston and even New York and you'll find attitude everywhere. Toronto's gay scene is younger though than I even remember it and I'm not that old. And younger usually means shallower, to a degree. At least I was. And yeah, the old me would have dumped one guy if another hotter or richer one came along.

Anyway it seems from the letter he'd already poisoned himself for the city before he even moved there and only self fulfilled his prophesy.

As far as I know I'm not sure I would fault other people for not saying hi to me after I've seen them walk their dog 3 times if I don't make the effort to strike up a conversation and say hello myself.

And my other question is, what citizenship is he waiting for? Maybe he meant visa or greencard. Because you actually have to be a resident of the U.S. to qualify for citizenship.

 

[Urban Shocker]

Any place that'll take him in once he gets his rabies, distemper and kennel cough shots, presumably.

 

[DC83]

No, seriously, whenever I travel, I always speak highly of my home but without fail find myself just having to mention how pretentious a lot of people are in Toronto. Sigh.

*DING DING DING* You Win!

I can comment as a younger (25 y/o) gay kid; and I believe it has everything to do with the pretentiousness factor.

Again, I think it stems from being opressed in their hometowns, or whatever, then they get to Toronto and can be as open as they want! They see angry/evil gay ppl in Media (drag queens?) and 'think' they're supposed to be like that.

I think Cooool was making a good point about 'How Gay Ppl Act' in Toronto, but y'all bit his head off without seeing his point;
People may act 'normal' (to their environment) when in their respective small/hometowns, then they get to Toronto and witness this whole Gay Culture like they have never seen before.
They're excited that they can be openly gay, and sometimes start to act 'extra gay' just as those in the media portray. They think that this is 'normal', and that the way they carried themselves before (in their hometowns) was all just an act.

Do you see where I'm getting at?

I'm not flamey or pretentious (is there such a thing in Hamilton?) and am rather straight acting & looking. I'm assuming this is why I never fit in with the 18-25 Young, Gay Toronto Crowd; b/c I don't 'act' like them.
If you refuse to fit that mould, you may have a hard time 'fitting in' (in TO, anwyay).

I think Mr Sharma encountered these issues as, again, he was trying to fit in with the wrong ppl/crowd and by not allowing himself to find his own niche in Toronto's Gay Community.

Make sense?