W. K. Lis
Superstar
From 1956? Yes, I would have to agree for nowdays, but we still need to catch up to make up the totals.
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Carjacked: An Anthropology of Americans and their Automobiles
- Thread starter W. K. Lis
- Start date
From 1956? Yes, I would have to agree for nowdays, but we still need to catch up to make up the totals.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
Actually ridership percapita is even higher than 2.6X because in Canada as we use linked trips as stats where as in the US they use unlinked trips. A trip requiring 3 different transferable routes in the US is considered 3 trips whereas in Canada it's considered one. Also the US numbers are completely warped due to the high transit ussuage in Greater New York which carries a full one third of all passenger trips for the entire nation.
All this being said one has to question whether all the current investment in mass/rapid transit in the US is worth the money. It looks nice but is it really worth the investment? Look at touchy-feely Seattle. Seattle likes to show off it's green credentials and attitudes but when push comes to shove the opposite is true.
Seattle just spent a whopping US$2.6 billion on the most expensive LRT system known to man and for what?...............just 25,000 passengers a day unlinked trips in a metro area of 3.3 million. Seattle wanted to step on the LRT bandwagon like many other US cities as it seems to be the flavour of the month for the last decade without really looking at it's net benefit. It would have done far better by creating a TRUE BRT system of total segregation like Ottawa's Transitway as it already had a bus only tunnel thru the downtown. With funds like that the entire metro area could be served by a huge BRT system. God knows it's ridership levels couldn't be worse.
The US is an car society and that will never change but that doesn't mean it can't improve it's transit system to offer choice and develope TOD and massive transit systems with high passenger levels. As much as the transit industry likes to cut ribbons it usually is not the best solution for their city's and certainly not cost effective and much of the pro highway crowd state this and in general they are right.
All this being said one has to question whether all the current investment in mass/rapid transit in the US is worth the money. It looks nice but is it really worth the investment? Look at touchy-feely Seattle. Seattle likes to show off it's green credentials and attitudes but when push comes to shove the opposite is true.
Seattle just spent a whopping US$2.6 billion on the most expensive LRT system known to man and for what?...............just 25,000 passengers a day unlinked trips in a metro area of 3.3 million. Seattle wanted to step on the LRT bandwagon like many other US cities as it seems to be the flavour of the month for the last decade without really looking at it's net benefit. It would have done far better by creating a TRUE BRT system of total segregation like Ottawa's Transitway as it already had a bus only tunnel thru the downtown. With funds like that the entire metro area could be served by a huge BRT system. God knows it's ridership levels couldn't be worse.
The US is an car society and that will never change but that doesn't mean it can't improve it's transit system to offer choice and develope TOD and massive transit systems with high passenger levels. As much as the transit industry likes to cut ribbons it usually is not the best solution for their city's and certainly not cost effective and much of the pro highway crowd state this and in general they are right.
mangasparky
Banned
Driving a car is faster then public transit. No one can argue against that. I've tried TTC and GO, my car is faster, not even close. I think improving highway systems and public transit are both important to reducing commute times, not one or the other.
I do use TTC and GO, but not for my work commutes. I also have a bike that I use quite often to get places.
Asking people to live closer to work so they can use public transit instead of a car is a stupid arguement.
I do use TTC and GO, but not for my work commutes. I also have a bike that I use quite often to get places.
Asking people to live closer to work so they can use public transit instead of a car is a stupid arguement.
nfitz
Superstar
It depends on one's commute. Some routes are quicker by car. Some aren't. Someone earlier in the thread (I think that this thread ...) was saying that the car only took him about 10 minutes longer than transit ... so he might as well drive. I can understand if the car is significantly faster, and it's an easy drive, then one might as well drive. I don't get using the car if it's the same time ... or slower. But I'd much prefer reading a book or a newspaper, or doing e-mails than being trapped in the car having to drive in poor traffic. I prefer the freedom I have from using transit. But I have a car, and I use it when it's the better choice for me.
Keep in mind though, that on many routes, travel times are forecast to get much worse over the next 25 years. Particularly in outer 416 and 905.
Why? I don't understand why anyone would want a long commute ... even if they are still driving.
mangasparky
Banned
Saying that some routes are quicker and some aren't gives a sense of equality for commute times. It is rare that a public transit cummute is faster than a car.
Nobody wants a long commute. People live where they live, you cannot just pick up the family and move everytime a work address changes. Housing costs are a huge factor that forces people out of the core. Some people like the burbs, and some have no choice. In regards to their choice of transportation, most drive, because driving is faster even if you are stuck in traffic for half of the commute. Not everyone works in the same same location from day to day, or even hour to hour. Not everyone likes the city, and they would rather drive those extra hours a day to get away from it.
The day that public transit becomes faster than driving is the same day that the TTC and GO shut down because they can't handle the volume.
Nobody wants a long commute. People live where they live, you cannot just pick up the family and move everytime a work address changes. Housing costs are a huge factor that forces people out of the core. Some people like the burbs, and some have no choice. In regards to their choice of transportation, most drive, because driving is faster even if you are stuck in traffic for half of the commute. Not everyone works in the same same location from day to day, or even hour to hour. Not everyone likes the city, and they would rather drive those extra hours a day to get away from it.
The day that public transit becomes faster than driving is the same day that the TTC and GO shut down because they can't handle the volume.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
Is it great to live near where you work......of course it is but in most circumstances it's not possible. This is not 1960 when the guy had a job for life in one local and mom stayed at home and raised the kids.
Most families both the parents are working and the notion that they can both work near where they live is ideal but not common. Also poeple don't stay in one job any more, they are much more likely to change jobs, and hence work locations many times through out their working lives.
I also really hate it when you get city planners telling you to try to work near where they live like they can afford to. The City of Vancouver is like this but you don't see them triplying their wage rates so they can get a $800k hole in the wall.
Most families both the parents are working and the notion that they can both work near where they live is ideal but not common. Also poeple don't stay in one job any more, they are much more likely to change jobs, and hence work locations many times through out their working lives.
I also really hate it when you get city planners telling you to try to work near where they live like they can afford to. The City of Vancouver is like this but you don't see them triplying their wage rates so they can get a $800k hole in the wall.
Electrify
Senior Member
Have you ever tried driving downtown during rush hour? What about driving along Bloor, Danforth, or Yonge during pretty much any time of day? I have, and can easily say that transit is faster in all these situations and times.
Second_in_pie
Senior Member
^^ And taking the Go train almost anywhere during rush hour is much, much faster than driving.
Hipster Duck
Senior Member
I think Mangasparky already addressed these points when he said that not everyone works in the core. I think the majority of downtown-bound commuters take alternative transit but, of course, this doesn't really matter when the proportion of GTA residents who work downtown is relatively small and on the decline, to boot.
Also, Bloor, Yonge and the Danforth are not the roads by which car commuters would generally enter the core anyway.
mangasparky
Banned
Nope.
Ok, I admit that GO is faster if..
Your work is located right next to a GO station and your home is located right next to a GO station.
Walking, cycling, TTCing, and driving to a GO station are indeed part of the commute. Waiting for buses, and trains are part of the commute. Waiting in line in your car trying to get out of the parking lot of a GO station is also part of the commute.
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mangasparky
Banned
Nah, travel times will stay pretty much the same. Highways and transit will improve just enough to keep things pretty much the same. Hopefully, if we are a little lucky, the transit huggers will fool enough people into believing TTC and GO are faster than driving and open up a little more space on the road the rest of us.
nfitz
Superstar
The only way that travel times are going to stay the same, is if we start tolling the highways heavily enough to get people off them.
And we can only hope that they they go for heavy tolls. I'm tired of waiting in traffic when I need to drive.
Otherwise, I don't know why you think that travel times will not get worse, when they have been getting worse for years. Perhaps they won't get any worse downtown, where transit is good, and parking costs are a good substitute for tolls.
Second_in_pie
Senior Member
And waiting in traffic on the DVP are part of the commute as well. Unless you live and work exceptionally far from Go stations, then you should be able to pretty consistently do better than people stuck in gridlock. I've tried, and I can get around just slightly slower than other people on average using transit, including outside of rushour gridlock. And biking around can be just as fast as a car much of the time, doing far better than a car anywhere near downtown.
And granted, that's just with current Go service and commute times. As the region gets bigger, gridlock will likely get even worse, and Go travel times will get way, way better with service expansion and (hopefully) electrification.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Maybe they can restrict the highways to buses, trucks, and automobiles with more than 1 person in them. It is the single person automobiles that are the main cause of traffic congestion. What is so heavy in their briefcase that requires a 2-ton vehicle to move it from A to B?
Admiral Beez
Superstar
There's just no way that public transit can get me to work faster than my car. I leave my house in Cabbagetown at 7:50am, and I'm at my desk at Markham Rd. and 14th Ave. in Markham before 8:30am. I bought the car second hand in 2004, and it's reliable, and gas is still cheap at about a buck. Public transit doesn't stand a chance against cars, especially for anyone that reverse commutes.