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scarberiankhatru
Guest
^ I saw it in a movie.
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socialwoe
Guest
"And this is based upon what exactly?"
Torontonians inability to take risks or think outside the box. They're reserving their faith in outdated, cumbersome streectar lines.
Torontonians inability to take risks or think outside the box. They're reserving their faith in outdated, cumbersome streectar lines.
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cdl42
Guest
But all the streetcar lines have substantial branching to them.
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EnviroTO
Guest
But in that case a driver often hops out of the streetcar, grabs a metal pole, and throws the switch... when things operate that slowly there is no risk of stroke. Its sort of calming. Ahhh. Streetcar moving at an average speed of 20km/h with stops, lights, coffee breaks, trolley pole jumps, and switching. Very calming. 
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roch5220
Guest
So you 'branch off', so 5 mins service for those stations becomes every 10 minutes. Its a good idea but I would want to make sure that service doesn't become - commutter - like frequency during off peak hours. I could envision at times where subways would be 20 mins appart due to numerous factors that affect regular service. NYC Metro North service seems to be more frequent than some of the subway lines that.
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cdl42
Guest
I'm still trying to figure out how we're inferior and close-minded simply because none of our two major subway lines don't have split ends.
Espically when comparing to Moscow, the busiest metro in the world, which of its 11 lines only one has a branch (opened just last year) and previous branch operation on line 2 was eliminated; or Paris, often touted as "the world's only perfect metro system", where of the 14 lines only 2 have branches; or Berlin with no branch services; or the much-touted Madrid which has no branch services... or Hong Kong... or Singapore...
Espically when comparing to Moscow, the busiest metro in the world, which of its 11 lines only one has a branch (opened just last year) and previous branch operation on line 2 was eliminated; or Paris, often touted as "the world's only perfect metro system", where of the 14 lines only 2 have branches; or Berlin with no branch services; or the much-touted Madrid which has no branch services... or Hong Kong... or Singapore...
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spmarshall
Guest
Montreal has no branches. Chicago got rid of the branches on the Blue Line with the new Pink Line - with branches, there was 20 minute service on the Forest Park and Cermak branches on weekends - the only branches left there are on the dismal south end of the Green Line.
Toronto's system is set up so there is no need for branches (the subway as a spine of an integrated system), and it would be both inconvenient and unnecessary. Progressive subway expansion, with a surface network feeder system that's likely the best anywhere (where else do they have large fare-paid areas for easy transfer from surface to Metro?). Better to feed trunk subway routes with more ROW surface transit where demand is there, and build subways where needed, independantly, to match service needs.
Toronto's system is set up so there is no need for branches (the subway as a spine of an integrated system), and it would be both inconvenient and unnecessary. Progressive subway expansion, with a surface network feeder system that's likely the best anywhere (where else do they have large fare-paid areas for easy transfer from surface to Metro?). Better to feed trunk subway routes with more ROW surface transit where demand is there, and build subways where needed, independantly, to match service needs.
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officedweller
Guest
Interlining would only work where you have branch lines with passenger demands that are relatively similar.
On the Yonge Line, the demand at Finch is too high to reduce service by interlining trains from Sheppard. In addition, if the demand at Finch is 4 times the demand along the Sheppard Line, having a 4 Finch - 1 Sheppard split would also reduce service on the Sheppard Line too much (meaning you'd need to short turn trains anyways).
For the Expo Line and Millennium Line in Vancouver, every third train is an M-Line train - so the split is 2 trains to Surrey, one train to the M-Line. Ultimately, though, if M-Line traffic increases greatly, the M-Line trains would be short-turned (before meeting the Expo Line) rather than interlined since the other end of the M-Line provides a transfer point. If the two lines had to operate through one set of switches, it would severely limit capacity - you get greater capacity if the trains on two lines do not have to coordinate with each other.
On the Yonge Line, the demand at Finch is too high to reduce service by interlining trains from Sheppard. In addition, if the demand at Finch is 4 times the demand along the Sheppard Line, having a 4 Finch - 1 Sheppard split would also reduce service on the Sheppard Line too much (meaning you'd need to short turn trains anyways).
For the Expo Line and Millennium Line in Vancouver, every third train is an M-Line train - so the split is 2 trains to Surrey, one train to the M-Line. Ultimately, though, if M-Line traffic increases greatly, the M-Line trains would be short-turned (before meeting the Expo Line) rather than interlined since the other end of the M-Line provides a transfer point. If the two lines had to operate through one set of switches, it would severely limit capacity - you get greater capacity if the trains on two lines do not have to coordinate with each other.
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scarberiankhatru
Guest
Sheppard should be extended to Downsview, not interlined with Yonge...there's already sometimes standing room only trains even at Finch, and due to infrequency the Sheppard lines often sees artificial crush load capacities during rush hour - neither stretch can afford to see reduced service.
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AlchemisTO
Guest
I'm not a big fan of line branches after having lived on one: the "M" Myrtle Ave. line of the JMZ in Brooklyn. On weekends, as a cost savings measure, they would take advantage of the branch to run a shuttle service to the branch point, where you would have to get off and wait for the next "J" train to come to take you into Manhattan. On weekdays, a train on a branch would have to wait until the other track was clear in both directions before proceeding to merge, holding all other trains behind it up as well.
Of all the subway systems, New York is probably the most branched and interlined and it can be extremely nerve-wracking and disorienting even for seasoned travelers to have a train reroute onto another line on weekends or late-nights. Right now, there's this Bermuda triangle somewhere in downtown Brooklyn where, mysteriously, the F train becomes the G, the A the F and the J backtracks as a shuttle on the R line. Moral of the story? No branched lines.
Of all the subway systems, New York is probably the most branched and interlined and it can be extremely nerve-wracking and disorienting even for seasoned travelers to have a train reroute onto another line on weekends or late-nights. Right now, there's this Bermuda triangle somewhere in downtown Brooklyn where, mysteriously, the F train becomes the G, the A the F and the J backtracks as a shuttle on the R line. Moral of the story? No branched lines.
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scarberiankhatru
Guest
I didn't mind the branched lines in London, but everything's rosy when you're a tourist.
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AlchemisTO
Guest
Hmm, Paris' system is the most comprehensive in the world but I think there might be better candidates for 'perfect'. I'm not saying that you said that, cdl, but the Paris subway is slow, small in profile and has the most bizarre seating arrangement ever.
If Toronto had a DRL, an Eglinton and a full Sheppard I would go so far as to say it would be the 'perfect metro'. The TTC subway is fast, frequent, spacious, has great connections to surface transit and is generally pretty wheelchair accessible. All it needs is more lines.
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Darkstar416
Guest
Agreed. As Miller would probably say "we have a pefect subway system for a city of 1.5 million, not 2.5"
DRL, Eglinton, Sheppard and a few small extensions on the existing lines and Toronto's subway system would basically be complete for a very long time.
The 905 should be handled not by subway extensions, but through S-Bahn like frequency on GO lines, new LRT's, busways and much denser "main street"-like development.
DRL, Eglinton, Sheppard and a few small extensions on the existing lines and Toronto's subway system would basically be complete for a very long time.
The 905 should be handled not by subway extensions, but through S-Bahn like frequency on GO lines, new LRT's, busways and much denser "main street"-like development.
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cdl42
Guest
AlchemisTO:
Indeed that's not my quote, in fact it makes me gag. But I've heard it on at least three different occasions from three different people. As you point out, its "perfection" is based upon only one measure: comprehensive coverage of a specific geographic area. There's many more factors in assessing the value of a transport system... what might work for Paris isn't going to be what other cities need. I'm sure that you'd hear quite a different response if you went out beyond the Peripherique and asked people if they thought Paris had a perfect metro system.
Indeed that's not my quote, in fact it makes me gag. But I've heard it on at least three different occasions from three different people. As you point out, its "perfection" is based upon only one measure: comprehensive coverage of a specific geographic area. There's many more factors in assessing the value of a transport system... what might work for Paris isn't going to be what other cities need. I'm sure that you'd hear quite a different response if you went out beyond the Peripherique and asked people if they thought Paris had a perfect metro system.
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humanlevel
Guest
for a system with trains every 5-6 minutes, the lack of basic branches is a missed opportunity for Toronto at Sheppard IMO (hopefully branching can be incorporated into future lines extending from other points). I think that people want as few transit links as possible (2-3 max per commute), and would probably prefer to wait 5 minutes longer at their origin to avoid a transfer walk to another subway level and wait for another train. I don't buy the argument that branching is too confusing for people to understand because most people take the same path every day and good signage can really help.