Blue Jays to increase payroll again

[SD2]

Some of you are ****ing stupid.

Is that so, JP?

I think you need to go over the forum rules again...

Comparing the Jays to the Twins and Athletics is pretty dumb considering they are not in the same division.

Where they're situated in the AL is irrelevant. I'm talking about the method/philosophy used in building their team. Oakland and Minnesota have managed to build rosters with considerable talent on limited budgets. How? By consistently drafting/accquiring and developing excellent young talent. This is why they're perennial contenders despite spending less than their division rivals (in Oakland's case, it's been far less), and losing FA's to larger market teams.

Yes, with a reasonable payroll like Toronto's current one, they would be able to compete and win in the Central division which Minnesota, Detroit and Chicago lie in.

With their current "reasonable" payroll they are more than capable of competitng for and winning the AL East.

But when your in a division with two teams that consist of the two highest payroll teams in the whole league, it will be tough for the Jays to compete consistently until the end of the season.

Money is not the reason why the Jays are having difficulty competing. No organization, not even the Yankees, can buy an entire team. The only way for any organization to be successful is to consistently develop young talent that can make an impact at the MLB level. The Yankees had some weaknesses this year, and everyone likes to point to the Abreu/Lidle trade...but people conveniently ignore the rise of players like Wang and Cano.

Ricciardi has been unable to develop a strong farm system...it's steadily deteriorated in his time here and is now among the worst in MLB. When players went down with injuries this year, there was no one on the farm that could come up and make a (positive) difference. Ricciardi was lucky to have a lot of talent left over from the previous regime...he's failed miserably at creating depth in organization.

As for Minnesota and Oakland, they could compete quite well in the East, especially with a payroll like the Jays. The reason they do so well is because they have a consistent stream of talent coming out of their system. They also are able to accquire great talent when they're dumping players who have become too pricey (something else Ricciardi has never been able to do).

Oakland has been a contender since 2000, despite playing in a division with payrolls just as inflated (relatively) as the Jays have to deal with in the East. In 2000 they won the division despite the highest spending team in the division spending more than twice as much as they did. The 2nd place team, the Mariners, spent nearly twice as much as they did (Boston has spent about 50% more than the Jays this year). They won the wildcard in 2001 despite Texas spending more than 2.5 times what they did. They won the division in 2002 under similar circumstances (A $40 million payroll against the $105 million high spent by Texas).

The same can be said of Minnesota.

And if you look at some of the recent World Series winners, the White Sox won last year with a payroll of about $75 million. Arizona won in 2001 and spent $80 million. The Marlins won in 2003 spending less than $50 million.

The Yankees haven't won since 2000.

The Jays will never be able to spend as much as the Yankees. Ricciardi has managed to make it seem as if the only way to compete is to spend comparable amounts. It isn't. He's just covering up for years of bad moves and terrible player devleopment, and you're buying it.

So, before labeling people "****ing stupid", why don't you actually figure out what you're talking about?

 

[jayomatic]

Wasn't Ricciardi responsible for the development of the A's before he came here? He seemed to do a pretty good job there.

 

[toforumer]

SD2, I understand what your saying. It is true the Jays as of late haven't developed their farm system very well.

Are you sure it is irrelevant which division the Jays are in? They are in a division with two crazy mad baseball teams that will do anything in their power to make the playoffs every season. The standings in this division has always been the same since the last time the Jays made and won the World Series title. It's either NYY or Boston who place 1st and 2nd in this division. It's tough competing against two extremely strong teams like that throughout the VERY long MLB season. It's so easy for the Yankees or BoSox to buy players to upgrade their lineups and I don't think that will change anytime soon. The AL East is one tough division to be stuck in!!


Let's look at the league's payroll rankings:
AL East
1. NYY 198,662,180
2.Boston 120,100,524
15. Baltimore 72,585,712
16.Toronto 71,915,000
29.Tampa Bay 35,417,967

Central
4.CWS 102,875,667
14.Detroit 82,302,069
19. Minnesota 63,810,048
24. Cleveland 56,795,867
26. Kansas City 47,294,000

The salaries in this division is less lopsided compared to the AL East. It's more dispersed

AL West
3. LA Angels 103,625,333
11. Seattle 87,924,500
18. Texas 65,129,570
21. Oakland 62,322,054


No other division in the AL compares to the amount of spending that goes on in the AL East. That's something very difficult to compete with. But your right in one sense, if Riccardi built up the farm system much better maybe they would still have been in the pennent race.

So let me get this straight, you hope that Riccardi doesn't get his payroll increase which he is asking for because he should be fired instead? Dude, look at the whole picture first. The Jays are ready to win now or in the next few years. If we don't have extreme depth in our farm system, we then need to sign some players in the off-season that will help this club get over the hump of always placing third in this division for god knows how many years its been so far except that one awful season a couple years ago where they placed last. Were not talking about increasing the salary to the NYY/Boston territory, but a reasonable increase that will be able sign sign a couple pitchers to help out the starting rotation and the bullpen. I for one know that I don't want to see Josh Towers pitch again for the Jays.

 

[toforumer]

Yes he was. That's the reason why he was signed her in Toronto. They wanted to follow the A's style of building up a sports franchise.

 

[SD2]

Wasn't Ricciardi responsible for the development of the A's before he came here? He seemed to do a pretty good job there.

Not really. He was Billy Beane's understudy. Beane was the one (and continues to be the one) responsible for the success of the A's.

As we've seen, Ricciardi isn't very good at developing talent.

 

[SD2]

Are you sure it is irrelevant which division the Jays are in? They are in a division with two crazy mad baseball teams that will do anything in their power to make the playoffs every season. The standings in this division has always been the same since the last time the Jays made and won the World Series title. It's either NYY or Boston who place 1st and 2nd in this division. It's tough competing against two extremely strong teams like that throughout the VERY long MLB season. It's so easy for the Yankees or BoSox to buy players to upgrade their lineups and I don't think that will change anytime soon. The AL East is one tough division to be stuck in!!

If the Jays were in the Central, they'd probably be in the same spot.

Being able to spend a lot of money is an advantage, but it's not insurmountable. Oakland has been a contender since 2000 despite teams in that division spending relatively more than the Yankees and Red Sox have compared to the Jays; on top of that, they've also had to deal with losing their own talent to other teams and having to replace it. The Jays can now afford to hang onto their talent.

Look at Ricciardi's player development record and you'll see why they're in the position they're in right now.

Let's look at the league's payroll rankings:
AL East
1. NYY 198,662,180
2.Boston 120,100,524
15. Baltimore 72,585,712
16.Toronto 71,915,000
29.Tampa Bay 35,417,967

Central
4.CWS 102,875,667
14.Detroit 82,302,069
19. Minnesota 63,810,048
24. Cleveland 56,795,867
26. Kansas City 47,294,000

The payroll quoted here for the Jays isn't accurate. It's in the $80 million - $85 million range. Check www.hardballdollars.com

The salaries in this division is less lopsided compared to the AL East. It's more dispersed

AL West
3. LA Angels 103,625,333
11. Seattle 87,924,500
18. Texas 65,129,570
21. Oakland 62,322,054

Evenly dispersed? The disparity between Oakland and LA is even greater than it is between the Jays and the Red Sox...even if you assume the Jays have a $70 million payroll, the disparity is the same.

Besides, it's only this year Oakland has spent a little more. Look at 2000-2005 and the payroll gaps are huge...yet they've still managed to contend.

So let me get this straight, you hope that Riccardi doesn't get his payroll increase which he is asking for because he should be fired instead?

No, if Rogers wants to provide more for payroll that's great. What I'm saying is that more money isn't going to help as long as the farm system is in such bad shape. Get a new GM, and let him spend the extra money.

Dude, look at the whole picture first.

I am, that's why I want Ricciardi fired. The organization is going to go even further downhill with him in charge.

The Jays are ready to win now or in the next few years. If we don't have extreme depth in our farm system, we then need to sign some players in the off-season that will help this club get over the hump of always placing third in this division for god knows how many years its been so far except that one awful season a couple years ago where they placed last. Were not talking about increasing the salary to the NYY/Boston territory, but a reasonable increase that will be able sign sign a couple pitchers to help out the starting rotation and the bullpen. I for one know that I don't want to see Josh Towers pitch again for the Jays.

A payroll increase isn't really going to help this year. They already have around $60 million committed for next year, with a lot of their own players to resign. Even if they get $10 million more, that's going to be swallowed up pretty quickly.

A team in Toronto's position must have a strong farm system. I agree that they're in a position to contend...but unfortunately that position is being undermined by the terrible job Ricciardi has done. Buying players on the free agent market (assuming they'll have the money to do so) is really just a stop-gap solution.

 

[toforumer]

I got my salary figures from ESPN.com

And I think more money would help at the moment. Why not spend at a time when the Jays are ready to contend? The Jays need help in the Starting Pitching rotation and also need some new releivers. Why not buy them when the club has no one to bring up from the minors that would actually help the team out at the MLB level?

It's not like this money is ours. Ted Rogers is the one who's dishing it out. If he wants to spend more, then go for it!! No one should tell him he shouldn't spend more of his own money. Not saying your saying that but I know others complain that the Jays overpaid Ryan and Burnett which they did. But that probably happened just to give them little more incentive to play in Canada. It's Rogers money, let him spend it how he pleases.

 

[wyliepoon]

^ Are you Bob McCown? That last paragraph sounds awfully similar to one of the Fan 590 TV commercials!

 

[SD2]

And I think more money would help at the moment. Why not spend at a time when the Jays are ready to contend? The Jays need help in the Starting Pitching rotation and also need some new releivers. Why not buy them when the club has no one to bring up from the minors that would actually help the team out at the MLB level?

If you read my last post you'd see that even with a $10 million payroll increase, they aren't going to have much to spend next year. They already have $60 million committed and have several players to resign.

It's not like this money is ours. Ted Rogers is the one who's dishing it out. If he wants to spend more, then go for it!! No one should tell him he shouldn't spend more of his own money. Not saying your saying that but I know others complain that the Jays overpaid Ryan and Burnett which they did. But that probably happened just to give them little more incentive to play in Canada. It's Rogers money, let him spend it how he pleases.

When did I say I had a problem with them spending money?

This Bob McCown line of reasoning is ridiculous. I don't think anybody cares how Ted Rogers spends his money. People are aware that Rogers is only going to give the Jays a limited amount for payroll purposes. That being the case, overpaying for players has a significant effect on the club's flexibility when it comes to going after other players and keeping it's own.

Rogers isn't saying "take my money and go get this player", he's giving Ricciardi a finite amount and saying "use this as wisely as possible to obtain the best results possible (the goal being to assemble a winner)". That's why a fan would question why the GM would take a large portion of this money and hand it a player like Burnett who really hasn't really ever delivered the results you'd expect from an $11 million/year pitcher. That's a significant amount from a limited pool that can't be used to strengthen the team in other areas.

McCown's argument makes no sense.