Toronto Bloor-Yonge Station Capacity Enhancement | ?m | ?s | TTC | AECOM

[Northern Light]

As I have said here before (or, at least, thought of saying!) PEDs are certainly VERY desirable at busy stations like Bloor-Yonge or stations with very narrow platforms. They may also be good in every station, eventually. It is quite possible to install them station-by-station so that we can learn from experience of problems and solutions. (Though I am sure that if some stations got hem and some did not there would be the usual accusations of discrimination!) The doors do not need to be the same at every station, some may be best 'full-height' (which is probably the gold standard), others may only require waist-height doors - which would also reduce the problems of ventilation in older stations - full-height doors would require major ventilation changes in many stations. In short, if one wants to lobby for PEDs then lobby for a gradual approach that can be varied as station architecture and crowding and experience dictate.

Note:

1) 1/2 height doors do very little on the subject of litter and thereford attendant fire/smoke related delays.

2) The estimates I offered for the cost of installing PEDs include ventilation upgrades; and to my understanding, are based on a full-height system.

 

[DSC]

Note:

1) 1/2 height doors do very little on the subject of litter and thereford attendant fire/smoke related delays.

2) The estimates I offered for the cost of installing PEDs include ventilation upgrades; and to my understanding, are based on a full-height system.

Yes, no doubt full-height doors are 'best' but we really do not have excess money and in many stations the cost of adjusting ventilation will be astronomical. Better to install half-height doors (which are a real deterrent to suicides or 'crowd accidents') in more stations than full-height ones in only a few. If litter fires are a concern, maybe send a vacuum truck along the tracks a bit more often!

 

[Northern Light]

Yes, no doubt full-height doors are 'best' but we really do not have excess money and in many stations the cost of adjusting ventilation will be astronomical. Better to install half-height doors (which are a ream deterrent to suicides or 'crowd accidents') in more stations than full-height ones in only a few. If litter fires are a concern, maybe send a vacuum truck along the tracks a bit more often!

I don't know. As I noted, a budget of 15M per station is inclusive of basic ventilation changes; and I know the intent at indoor stations, when the estimates were made was to make those changes compatible with central heat and a/c (not to install heat/ac in the projects themselves).

As we hit ~40 degrees today, I'm finding it moderately oppressive in my apartment, and I have 3 air conditioners. In the room with the 12000btw window unit, it is currently 23.4 degrees with 72% humidity and climbing. It's warmer elsewhere.

I think we need to be mindful, that for us as a city to function in the era of climate change. Climate control of indoor stations may be a necessity.

Yes, investments are costly; yes we need to raise more revenues to make them; while understanding the political realities of the day, I'm not really prepared to concede that we ought implement 1/2 measures with no future proofing because politicians are too scared to raise taxes.

 

[superelevation]

I don't make TTC policy. I do agree they're highly risk-averse: there are many reasons but the main one is funding (they don't have enough money to be able to make mistakes). A discussion about it probably isn't right for this thread about Bloor-Yonge Capacity.

I do want PSDs at Bloor/Yonge and other busy stations. Achieving those requires people to write their current and future councillor to get such a project funded (it is NOT a funded feature today), including a trial period because TTC is the way that it is as that's simply who we're working with, whether they should be that way or not. There's an election coming and potential new councillors are often quite good at listening before they're elected.

Do not wait until 2030 to ask for PSDs at Bloor/Yonge. It will not be a 6 month project for TTC even if other agencies might do it in 6 months.


Changing TTC policy to move-fast and break-things is a much much much larger political project than getting PSDs at Bloor/Yonge at a slow schedule.

Well . . . whenever someone says to me that the TTC "lacks" funds I like to remind people how insane the costs for projects are. Bloor Yonge rebuild is way over a billion dollars, and very dense intersection or not that number is crazy! The amount of funds are not as much an issue as the inability to do anything cost effectively.

 

[officedweller]

Good photo, I thought I'd blow it up a bit for people to see the detail a bit more easily:

View attachment 387396

I also thought I'd throw in one with some labels for those who might find it difficult to orient themselves:

View attachment 387398

Came across this pic of Bloor-Danforth Line construction:

Bloor-Danforth-University Subway – Danforth Subway

Much of the Bloor-Danforth subway was built one or two lots north Bloor Street and Danforth Avenue, and required the purchase and demolition of many properties. At the time of its construction, Greenwood yard was the largest on the TTC system. It was designed to meet the demand […]

www.toronto.ca

 

[Northern Light]

Great pic find @officedweller

I thought I would add some labels for those who might not be able to place everything in the photo:

 

[officedweller]

Came across Toronto Archives Web Exhibits here, with great historical pics:

Web Exhibits: Transportation

Subways, streetcars, buses. Learn about Toronto’s history of moving people around the city.

www.toronto.ca

Web Exhibits: Architecture & Infrastructure

Bridges, buildings, highways and byways. Learn more about Toronto’s built environment and the planning behind it.

www.toronto.ca

No Little Plans: Alternative Building and Transportation Visions for Toronto

Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men’s blood and probably themselves will not be realized. Make big plans; aim high in hope and work, remembering that a noble, logical diagram once recorded will never die, but long after we are gone will be a living thing… Daniel Burnham...

www.toronto.ca

 

[daptive]

We had better island platforms in 1963 than we do now on Eglinton

 

[sacred]

I really still can’t shake the feeling that this project is a waste of 1.5B without a Spanish Solution on Line 1. Won’t we be kicking ourselves in 2040 when line 1 frequency is entirely constrained by BY dwell time (and the southbound slow order I suspect may still be around)

 

[Northern Light]

I really still can’t shake the feeling that this project is a waste of 1.5B without a Spanish Solution on Line 1. Won’t we be kicking ourselves in 2040 when line 1 frequency is entirely constrained by BY dwell time (and the southbound slow order I suspect may still be around)

The Spanish Solution was never truly feasible here, for two different reasons.

1) It required closure of Bloor-Yonge Station for a minimum of six months.

2) To gain capacity for the required centre platform on Line 1, the side platforms were basically cut in 1/2.
Not really a workable compromise.

Further, I would argue it really wouldn't function well without 2 side platforms on Line 2 as well.

Achieving a proper build out, based on the budgets we are seeing for this project now, would surely exceed 3B on one station, If you could deliver that without demolishing most of what's above the station now; which I would argue is utterly impractical.

As such the price would be even higher.

****

Aside from the relief benefits of the Ontario Line, the TTC/Mx are contemplating additional station expansions throughout the Line 1 loop downtown, including a similar in scale expansion of St. George with new
side platforms.

 

[ssiguy2]

Is this project really going to be necessary? Once the OL gets built way more than half of all riders going downtown which transfer at Pape and added to this due to GO RER {assuming fare integration} fewer longer-medium distance riders be heading to the B/D line in the first place.

Seems like a waste of of money to me and those precious funds would be far better spent on things like elevators at all stations to make the entire subway system accessible.

 

[Northern Light]

Is this project really going to be necessary?

Yes.

Once the OL gets built way more than half of all riders going downtown which transfer at Pape

What modelling are you looking at that suggests this? There will certainly be a shift of a meaningful percentage of transfers to the new interchange, but I don't recall seeing 1/2 (perhaps my memory is failing on that)

One must also keep in mind there are a large number of transfers to NB Yonge as well.

Further, there's the matter of all the additional ridership that will be brought in by both the Yonge North extension, and the SSE; plus transfers from the O/L to Line 2 (and then, in some cases, Line 1)

and added to this due to GO RER {assuming fare integration} fewer longer-medium distance riders be heading to the B/D line in the first place.

Perhaps, but we don't have that today, nor has it been promised.

Seems like a waste of of money to me and those precious funds would be far better spent on things like elevators at all stations to make the entire subway system accessible.

Disagree; and would add, every single station will have elevators by 2025 with all the contracts awarded by Q1 2023 (in the next few months). That work is already fully funded.

 

[felix123]

Yes.

What modelling are you looking at that suggests this? There will certainly be a shift of a meaningful percentage of transfers to the new interchange, but I don't recall seeing 1/2 (perhaps my memory is failing on that)

One must also keep in mind there are a large number of transfers to NB Yonge as well.

Further, there's the matter of all the additional ridership that will be brought in by both the Yonge North extension, and the SSE; plus transfers from the O/L to Line 2 (and then, in some cases, Line 1)

Perhaps, but we don't have that today, nor has it been promised.

Another way to look at this would be whether it would be better to expand RT in a city that lacks it so profoundly. We're talking about the most populous downtown core in the country with next to no RT and an unusable commuter rail system for nearly everyone in the city.

It's sad that BY will be required, but the situation is so dire for someone in say Parkdale that it's hard to see that money being spent on a station improvement when most of the city is still a desert.

 

[Northern Light]

Another way to look at this would be whether it would be better to expand RT in a city that lacks it so profoundly. We're talking about the most populous downtown core in the country with next to no RT and an unusable commuter rail system for nearly everyone in the city.

It's sad that BY will be required, but the situation is so dire for someone in say Parkdale that it's hard to see that money being spent on a station improvement when most of the city is still a desert.

1.5B doesn't buy you much in the way of additional subway/rt. Moreover, adding 1-2 more stations in/or beyond downtown won't do much to address the crowding at Y-B.

South Parkdale/LV will be served by the Ontario Line, at least peripherally, and likewise the Western Waterfront LRT assuming we get that one back on track.

There is also the LV GO Station coming; (with 2Way, All-day, frequent service)

Eventually, there will be a further westward extension of the O/L which, other than GO Expansion is all that area of the City will ever see, in all likelihood. But 1.5B would probably only get you one station or two stations to the west and not improve coverage that much.

Yes, I know, that was just one example; but in the same vein, lots of 'deserts' are set to be infilled by the projects soon to get underway; the spending on which dwarfs Y-B.

 

[nfitz]

I'd think the best way to deal with Line 1 Bloor station, ultimately, would be to build a completely new southbound single track tunnel and station (with 2 platforms) under Yonge at Bloor. And then convert the existing station to northbound only.

It would only require minor construction work at the existing Line 1 platforms (probably more impact to the Line 2 platforms). We saw with the recent addition of a tunnel junction on the southbound Line 1 between Sheppard West and Wilson stations, only required limited closures.

There's no operational reason that the northbound and southbound tracks need to be anywhere near each other.

I'd think the biggest challenge would be trying to get the southbound tracks back to the existing alignment before Wellesley station.