Toronto Billy Bishop Toronto City Airport | ?m | ?s | Ports Toronto | Arup

Check the density of the neighbourhoods. Check also the density of the employment areas. Find out why those areas were zoned for commercial development in the first place, long after the airport was there. Consider the modal-share in each area. Consider air-quality levels in each area. Consider the impacts of air-quality levels in each area for the rest of the region.

Read for example about how Pearson's employment lands are spread over an area larger than the former City of Toronto. Or about how Old Malton Village houses less people than a single building in Toronto's waterfont.

What's that? You don't care? Planners and public health experts are stupid? Ah, OK.

polls_BurnedBooks2_5015_197770_poll_xlarge.jpeg
 
Check the density of the neighbourhoods. Check also the density of the employment areas. Find out why those areas were zoned for commercial development in the first place, long after the airport was there. Consider the modal-share in each area. Consider air-quality levels in each area. Consider the impacts of air-quality levels in each area for the rest of the region.

Read for example about how Pearson's employment lands are spread over an area larger than the former City of Toronto. Or about how Old Malton Village houses less people than a single building in Toronto's waterfont.

What's that? You don't care? Planners and public health experts are stupid? Ah, OK.


So it does come down to nimby. Thanks for confirming.
 
What's that? You don't care? Planners and public health experts are stupid? Ah, OK.

I was wondering what the base case for the public health report was? I'm not a health expert so I was hoping that someone could inform me of their report assumptions.

What alternative assumption did they use for long-term growth in travel modes? There will be growth in travel to these destinations so did they consider the impact to Toronto from increased traffic, diesel trains, secondary impacts due to wind currents from Pearson, etc. I know they are focused on Toronto and I was wondering if they considered all the impact to Toronto (let's ignore impacts to other cities for now). I agree that the direct pollution including noise pollution is less impactful on a lower density airport near Pearson but I wonder if they considered that almost every person that was going to fly out of the Island is now going to be driving or will be on a train going through the same neighbourhood. And I think there is more density around the tracks/Lakeshore/Gardiner/427 vs beside the Island.
 
Check the density of the neighbourhoods. Check also the density of the employment areas. Find out why those areas were zoned for commercial development in the first place, long after the airport was there. Consider the modal-share in each area. Consider air-quality levels in each area. Consider the impacts of air-quality levels in each area for the rest of the region.

Read for example about how Pearson's employment lands are spread over an area larger than the former City of Toronto. Or about how Old Malton Village houses less people than a single building in Toronto's waterfont.

What's that? You don't care? Planners and public health experts are stupid? Ah, OK.

polls_BurnedBooks2_5015_197770_poll_xlarge.jpeg

So the areas around Pearson were zoned commercial/industrial decades after the airport was built and the village of Malton was there about a century before the airport? I came to Malton well after the airport was built and don't mind the airplanes at all.
The most of the housing near the island airport was built 50 years after the airport. The land where the condos sit was commercial/industrial for over a hundred years, sound like a good spot for an airport. Why then did the city approve all of the housing near the island airport? Why do people, who don't care for a nearby airport, move near one? If they really don't like the airport why don't they move away?
How could someone complain about airport pollution 500m one way but ignore the highway pollution 500m the other? As well, is the health of the 40K of us in Malton worth less than those in Toronto?
This debate is really about NIMBY. "Move the airplanes away from me to Pearson!", "Move the airplanes away from me to Pickering", "Move the airplanes away from me to Downsview!"... "Now make a railroad and subsidize my trips to Pearson so I can take an airplane to my vacation spot!"
KEEP THE AIRPORT. DON'T LIKE LIVING NEAR AN AIRPORT, THEN MOVE YOURSELF!
 
I was wondering what the base case for the public health report was? I'm not a health expert so I was hoping that someone could inform me of their report assumptions.

What alternative assumption did they use for long-term growth in travel modes? There will be growth in travel to these destinations so did they consider the impact to Toronto from increased traffic, diesel trains, secondary impacts due to wind currents from Pearson, etc. I know they are focused on Toronto and I was wondering if they considered all the impact to Toronto (let's ignore impacts to other cities for now). I agree that the direct pollution including noise pollution is less impactful on a lower density airport near Pearson but I wonder if they considered that almost every person that was going to fly out of the Island is now going to be driving or will be on a train going through the same neighbourhood. And I think there is more density around the tracks/Lakeshore/Gardiner/427 vs beside the Island.

A lot of that is beyond the scope of the project and for good reason, it is not that significant given how localised a lot of the environmental impacts of these developments are (dose makes the poison, and in this case it's all about proximity). Also, induced demand is a thing for airplanes just as it is for other modes of transportation, so the cheaper and more accessible you make flying the more people will opt to do so. You cannot make the assumption that the same number of people will fly either way.

In any case... in the medium term GO rail and the Pearson Rail Link should be electrified, which means that the amount of emissions released into the neighbourhood from people travelling to the airport by rail will be minimal. People who were going to walk or take transit to the island airport will be within walking distance of an electric rail connection to Pearson, so no extra cars on that equation.

People from the rest of the city heading to Pearson in cars will be heading to an airport in a very low-density area mostly through other low-density areas rather than through Toronto's most populated neighbourhoods.

Overall the impacts of transporting people from downtown to other airports would be very small, and can be improved and be made sustainable and less polluting much more easily than it would be to try and make the island airport operations more sustainable and compatible with its surroundings.

Now, if you look at the levels of pollution arising from highways in Toronto, especially in Etobicoke, you'll see it is absolutely disastrous. That is why a less centralised electrified rail system and improved public transportation network is essential for this city's future health (if we want to keep building residential areas next to our highways, that is). Expanding the island airport would do next to nothing to ameliorate the impacts of our highway network, instead making matters worse in what is already one of the densest and most polluted areas in the city. Ironically, the greatest support for maintaining the status quo and/or expanding highways comes from the suburban neighbourhoods that are hit the hardest with their pollution.

In many ways Pearson itself is a lost battle because of the sheer amount of cargo that goes through that airport (one of the reasons why it's a huge employment centre). Busy airports and highway systems simply require large buffer zones around them unless we want to deal with huge amounts of negative externalities. Pearson actually has a huge buffer and it works quite well, contrary to what the false equivalences posited by many posters here ("look there's a house there!!!11!") would indicate.

All the areas in orange or red do not meet minimum air quality standards:

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When you look at maps showing population and employment density such as this (which may have been made by a fellow UTer?):

employ4.png


You see that the area around Pearson and some of the large highway interchanges (where pollution levels are highest) have been rightly kept as some of the lowest density areas in the region, which is consistent with the most basic notions of risk management.

Expanding an airport next to the most populous part of the city is the opposite of what any risk management expert would suggest (as evidenced by the fact that all experts on the subject are against the expansion).
 
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Funny how Billy Bishop is non existent on this, though I must admit it seems like it just isn't covered. The immediate area surrounding it doesn't deem to be effected however.

and in the end even the worst pollution levels in the city are relatively timid, and are really within a reasonable level. Toronto is consistently ranked as one of the best cities in the world for air quality.

I also bet you that if you were to measure in a 2km radius of both Pearson and Billy Bishop you would end up with more people living and working around Pearson than around billy bishop. (if largely only because billy bishop is surrounded by water on 3 sides)

Billy Bishop:

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Pearson:

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Both images are the same scale.
 
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You can find up-to-date specific readings from the waterfront showing very high levels of air pollution, especially near the airport.

Even with the lake, looking at density figures, it's pretty clear there's many more people near Billy Bishop. Most of those buildings you see near the airport are full of goods, not people. Sprawl is very deceiving.

Still, it is only reasonable as a risk management strategy that buildings within a close range to Pearson filter the air through their ventilation systems. Since there are relatively few buildings, this should be relatively easy to do. Clearly our planners were competent enough to plan the type of areas around an airport that you can get away with having next to an airport.

New buildings downtown fortunately do filter the air, but there's more pedestrians in that part of the city than probably anywhere else in Canada, making the prioritisation of air quality particularly important.

I have lived and will probably live again in cities with terrible air quality. It's horrible. Toronto's air is clean but downtown it could be much cleaner, still. If we work towards that end we will save the lives of many people in the not-so-distant future.
 
People who were going to walk or take transit to the island airport will be within walking distance of an electric rail connection to Pearson, so no extra cars on that equation.

Wrong. Just because there is a rail link doesn't mean that will be the prefered method of those users over a car. Especially when considering what the likely cost per person per direction is going to be.


People from the rest of the city heading to Pearson in cars will be heading to an airport in a very low-density area mostly through other low-density areas rather than through Toronto's most populated neighbourhoods.

As long as it's someone elses neighbourhood they're driving through, polluting. As long as the planes are flying over someone elses home polluting their neighbourhoods and not mine.
 
And you forget that while Pearson will have a single train running to it, Billy Bishop is extremely close to Union which is by far the most accessible transit location in Canada. You can get there easily from essentially everywhere in the GTA, especially once all day GO starts to come online on more lines other than lakeshore.

RC8, There is much more than warehouses in the surrounding area I circled around pearson. The industrial area to the south of Pearson is largely composed of office parks (and very fast growing), Hotels and offices line Dixon heading west from the airport, there are several large office buildings along Airport Road, the thousands of people who work at the airport itself in freight, and of course the thousands of people who work in those industrial warehousing facilities. Each one of those warehouses employs anywhere between a couple dozen and almost a thousand people. There is probably around around 15,000 people actually living in the circled area as well.
 
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Good thing the train to Pearson departs from Union, then.

If anyone is on the fence all they have to do is read our exchange and make up their minds. I've said all I have to say.
 
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Good thing the train to Pearson departs from Union, then.

(I'm hugely lowering my standards here, but I'm done arguing using objective facts when all you do is ignore and deflect. Everyone who has studied the expansion's impacts in detail is against it)

because the first thing someone wants to do after sitting on the GO train for 40 minutes is get on another train for 25. No, they will drive.
 
because the first thing someone wants to do after sitting on the GO train for 40 minutes is get on another train for 25. No, they will drive.

And how long does that take in this city?

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Also, it takes around 20 minutes to get to union from the island airport. So you save a whopping 5 minutes by taking a crowded streetcar rather than a comfortable express train with all it's amenities.
 
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And how long does that take in this city?

Those cars are lined up to get on the Gardiner......to the right you can see very light traffic getting on the Lakeshore. When I fly from the Island I take the free shuttle from York and Front and it takes +/- 10 minutes...never goes on the Gardiner.



Also, it takes around 20 minutes to get to union from the island airport. So you save a whopping 5 minutes by taking a crowded streetcar rather than a comfortable express train with all it's amenities.

Not sure why someone would pay $3 to take a streetcar that gets near YTZ when they could ride a free shuttle bus that takes them right to the terminal and it takes, as I said above, about 10 minutes.
 

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