Toronto Billy Bishop Toronto City Airport | ?m | ?s | Ports Toronto | Arup

I think it will be some time before a high speed train is in service to both Montreal and Ottawa (there is significant traffic to both cities,particularly if you include onward flights from Ottawa to Halifax and St. John's), so I don't think the BBTCA needs to close up shop just yet.

Would a high speed train to Montreal go through Ottawa (making the trip longer and less competitive with flying) or would a separate train go to Ottawa (from both Montreal and Toronto?).

since HSR trains would be about as fast, but would go from city centre to city centre, and will be around the same cost.
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I agree that, once in place, a train that takes one hour from Toronto to Montreal (or Toronto-Ottawa) at $100-$120 each way would put a serious dent in Porter's business plan. Even if it took 90 minutes, it might still be competitive.

With HSR, what time would I have to leave my apartment in Toronto to make a 9am meeting in Downtown Ottawa? Currently, I leave home around 6am (10 minute cab ride to the ferry dock) for the 7am Porter flight which gets me there in plenty of time.
 
I think the bigger concern would be for a Ryanair-esque airline appearing in Canada. That could cause some massive changes in the Canadian airline industry. Ryanair is already looking into moving into the transatlantic market with flights out of Buffalo (and 3 other airports). Considering the Open Skies agreements that have become more prevalent, a North American Ryanair could cause more havoc than any HSR.
 
I don't think a Ryair-esque no-frills airline that operates from suburban airports would be after the same market as Porter. Although they might be competitors on some of the longer-haul destinations and connecting routes.
 
But it'll affect how airlines in Canada operate. A Cdn Ryan Air probably wouldn't attract business people, but it would put pressure on Westjet and AC, which could impact their fares, which might give some businesses a reason to fly with those companies (since they're not THAT far off of Porter's service), which in turn would put pressure on Porter. If a company like that comes in, it could be a huge game changer.
 
jn_12 said:
But it'll affect how airlines in Canada operate. A Cdn Ryan Air probably wouldn't attract business people, but it would put pressure on Westjet and AC, which could impact their fares, which might give some businesses a reason to fly with those companies (since they're not THAT far off of Porter's service), which in turn would put pressure on Porter. If a company like that comes in, it could be a huge game changer.
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How does a company like Ryanair make money? If you use Porter as an example....they have fairs below $100 one way to Chicago....taxes and fees take that up (but they would also for Ryanair as well)....how much less than $100 can you charge and make money?

If they can charge considerably less...where do the savings come from?
 
Ryanair sells the seats at a loss -- very often you can buy seats for 1 british pound -- and they make their money off of fees:

Ryanair Fee Schedule

5 pounds to check in online, 5 pounds administration charge per segment to buy your ticket, 35 pounds for the first bag (15 kg), 70 pounds for the second and 20 pounds a kilo for overage, 40 pounds to get a boarding card at the airport, 55 pounds to change your flight, 50 pounds for sports equipment, etc.

However, if you don't have any bags and book/checkin online, you can fly for very cheap.

EDIT: For example, I just booked a random flight from London to Barcelona on the 3rd of March coming back on March 23rd for a total cost of 38.83 pounds including the web check-in fee of 10 pounds. There don't appear to be any taxes on that, but the administration fee would be extra.
 
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They also negotiate low landing fees with non-traditional airports. Many airports would rather have a carrier operating from their facility at a low fee than none at all. It benefits the local community as well since people have access to more destinations from their community and it can be used as an incentive to attract business.

So in Toronto's case, perhaps Buttonville becomes a potential home for a Cdn Ryan Air. Most people look for the cheapest price when they're travelling, and they're willing to look beyond proximity to the airport so long as it's reasonable and the price is right. As an example of what could happen, look at Buffalo airport compared to AC and Porter. Me and my family are going to Chicago in May and to fly with AC and Porter it would have cost us $396 Roundtrip each. With Southwest, it will cost us $148 each. That's a $250 saving. If an airline was able to come in and do that in the Toronto market, they'd cause havoc.
 
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Unfortunately, around $120 of that extra cost in Canada is the taxes and fees which you can't really avoid without driving across the border.
 
Taxes/fees make up around $30 of the Southwest price. Taxes from YYZ/YTZ are around $120. So let's say Buttonville's taxes were the same as YYZ/YTZ, but the airline's fare was the same as what Southwest offers. You're looking at around $150 in savings. That's pretty significant.
 
But, if you go to Buttonville and then have to pay for transportation to a downtown meeting, that eats up a lot of the savings. That's one of the major benefits of Porter. Not to mention the time it takes to get from Buttonville to downtown. If you're meeting in the Buttonville vicinity, it would be worth it.
 
Regarding fees, there was a report a while back that stated that YYZ was the most expensive airport in the world. To land a 747 there costs $11000, or over double New York's La Guardia.
 
jn_12 said:
Taxes/fees make up around $30 of the Southwest price. Taxes from YYZ/YTZ are around $120. So let's say Buttonville's taxes were the same as YYZ/YTZ, but the airline's fare was the same as what Southwest offers. You're looking at around $150 in savings. That's pretty significant.
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I guess...but if the Ryanair model that someone laid out was replicated....the minute you checked a bag (something that AC and Porter do for free) the savings start to rot away pretty quickly.....no?
 
I think we all know how Canadian discount airfare companies all end up. If not, here's a hint -> JetsGo
 
andomano said:
I think we all know how Canadian discount airfare companies all end up. If not, here's a hint -> JetsGo
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That is how undercapitalized discounters who try to balance the books by eliminating such trivial things such as aircraft maintainance end up!

WestJet started life as a discounter.......and really still are.....they took the Southwest model and simply Canadianized it. Their biggest impact is that Air Canada had to adjust its model to the everything on board (food, blankets, etc) is ala carte airline we see today.
 
Eug said:
To land a 747 there costs $11000, or over double New York's La Guardia.
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That might be true for landing fees, but having a fully loaded 747 take-off from La Guardia will cost significantly more. First there is the cost of writing off the plane, then the lawsuits, the public relations catastrophe. Very expensive.
 
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