kEiThZ
Superstar
Not just Miller. Under any mayor. Toronto has never had 'jet' service, so there's no way they'll allow BAE146s in there. Aside from that, the runway isn't long enough to make it worthwhile to operate a 146.
Toronto Billy Bishop Toronto City Airport | ?m | ?s | Ports Toronto | Arup
Not just Miller. Under any mayor. Toronto has never had 'jet' service, so there's no way they'll allow BAE146s in there. Aside from that, the runway isn't long enough to make it worthwhile to operate a 146.
kEiThZ
Superstar
You did.
Now in light of past traditions if you can continue to divulge tidbits that'd be great!
jn_12
Senior Member
haha I had a post typed out, and then I realized that what my friends at Porter were told (and then passed along to me) was in a private meeting with Deluce, so it might not be sharable quite yet. To be honest, it's not overly juicy stuff, but it details what their plans are for the coming year or so.
One thing I am wondering is what the impact of Continental coming in would really mean. Obviously, the expectation is that prices would drop, but I'm wondering if Deluce will make the rent/lease exorbitant and the Port Authority will raise the price of landing fees to the point where Continental can't afford to undercut Porter. I don't know how landing fees work, so I don't know if the TPA can legally charge one company one price and another a much larger one. It might be another advantage that Porter has.
One thing I am wondering is what the impact of Continental coming in would really mean. Obviously, the expectation is that prices would drop, but I'm wondering if Deluce will make the rent/lease exorbitant and the Port Authority will raise the price of landing fees to the point where Continental can't afford to undercut Porter. I don't know how landing fees work, so I don't know if the TPA can legally charge one company one price and another a much larger one. It might be another advantage that Porter has.
kEiThZ
Superstar
If they were a private entity maybe. As a governmental entity there is no way the TPA will charge different landing fees to different operators. That'd be bad form. However, Porter will be fine. Not all of their passengers after all are originating in TO. Many are connecting through. Since Continental doesn't have an AC feeder, they'll have a rather limited customer base: Air Canada/Star Alliance customers originating in TO.
Then there's Porter's service. It's so good, that most people I know are willing to give up their aeroplan points and fly Porter instead of AC. Given how much worse US airlines tend to be (luggage fees for example), I doubt there'll be tons of people lining up for Continental even if the fare is lower.
Where Continental will pick up passengers are those who are flying through a Continental hub, not terminating there. For them, it'll be a big alternative to Pearson.
sjc
Active Member
Looking at the Continental route map, I would suspect that Newark and Cleveland would be on Continental's short list of initial destinations.
Newark: I suspect that they would get a significant amount of connecting (to other US destinations) traffic and at least some Toronto-Newark traffic, although I suspect that total Toronto-New York traffic is sufficient to support multiple carriers. It is likely that the people going YTZ-EWR on Continental will primarily be those that are currently taking AC/Continental from Pearson (for connecting or points purposes) and not the current Porter passengers.
Cleveland: Porter has indicated that they plan to start service to Cleveland, and Continental in place on the route would make it more difficult. On the other hand, Porter could go into Burke Lakefront and avoid the direct competition.
A lot will depend on whether Continental tries to directly compete with Porter are focus on different markets and connecting traffic to feed their network.
There are also a lot of other eastern US cities that are not being served from YTZ that Continental could go to without competing with Porter (Rochester, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Columbus, Cincinnati etc). EDIT: I took another look at the route map and it doesn't look like Continental is big on non-hub routes.
I don't see fares coming down significantly (in existing YTZ destinations) except perhaps at first on a promotional basis.
I doubt that TPA could charge different landing fees to different companies (unless perhaps they could offer a reduced "bulk rate" to any airlines that have more than 50 flights a week?), but with respect to gate and terminal fees, those go to the Porter family of companies, so while they will likely charge the same amount to everyone, Porter's gate fees are being paid to Porter so it doesn't really matter to Porter what they charge -- the higher the better. My expectation is that terminal space rentals would be set to recover the money spent developing the new terminal and keeping it running.
Bob Deluce and the other investors want to make a profit -- but it shouldn't really matter to them if the profit comes from the airline or from a terminal company that milks everyone (including Porter) for cash.
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TOareaFan
Superstar
Maybe I misunderstood but does a private company related to Porter (through common ownership) not control the terminal? So couldn't they establish a rate to use the facilities that, essentially, placed a floor on how low fares could go and, thus, offer some protection to Porter?
sjc
Active Member
I suspect that this is one place that Continental could pick up some passengers -- people that had to make the choice between earning aeroplan points and flying from Toronto island. I assume that as part of Star Alliance you can earn aeroplan points on Continental?
Is there going to be a Porter lounge in the new Toronto terminal like the one in Ottawa (where non-Porter passengers do not get to go)?
Darwinkgo
Active Member
sjc
Active Member
I would suppose that if Porter charged too much for gate space, that Continental would have the option of renting space from the guys in the Northeast corner of the airport (Stolport?)? I remember Air Canada/Ontario used to operate out of a trailer on the east side of the roundabout before they built the current terminal and AC Jazz talked about using Stolport for terminal space back in 2006.
Is there any space in the original terminal (where the Druxy's is)? Does it have access to the tarmac?
Another option would be to make a little terminal on the mainland and bus passengers to their planes from there.
Is there any space in the original terminal (where the Druxy's is)? Does it have access to the tarmac?
Another option would be to make a little terminal on the mainland and bus passengers to their planes from there.
jn_12
Senior Member
Keithz - The interesting thing is that while there are more people than ever connecting through Toronto, it's not a lot. Only a handful per day. So if 95% of people on a YTZ-EWR flight are originating in YTZ, they might take price into consideration. I think it's going to come down to each individual consumer, and I'd imagine there will be a bunch of variable that will determine their choice such time, cost, quality of service, loyalty program (don't forget, Porter has one too) etc. Considering the new terminal will be much more like a traditional airport with some restaurants and whatnot that will serve everyone, we're really only talking about differences in the air, which really boil down to alcohol and food.
Sjc - The old terminal is used by Druxy's and has some office space upstairs (basically the guy who issues security passes and I guess manages the Airport) as well as a small boardroom. The back of the building is the Porter Catering Facility which is incredibly tiny. You would almost be surprised by how small it is actually. It does have access to the tarmac though.
I think Continental or Jazz will need to move into the new facility. It would really be a detriment if they were to find a new place on the island to operate from considering the facilities being built at present.
Sjc - The old terminal is used by Druxy's and has some office space upstairs (basically the guy who issues security passes and I guess manages the Airport) as well as a small boardroom. The back of the building is the Porter Catering Facility which is incredibly tiny. You would almost be surprised by how small it is actually. It does have access to the tarmac though.
I think Continental or Jazz will need to move into the new facility. It would really be a detriment if they were to find a new place on the island to operate from considering the facilities being built at present.
kEiThZ
Superstar
There's no way the airport can charge different landing fees to different operators. Terminal fees probably can vary. I am guessing, for example, that AC gets a good discount for being the lead tenant at Pearson.
In terms of competition with Porter though, that's only of limited utility. Porter will probably compete directly with Continental on one or two routes: Newark and Cleveland. So collecting the points only matters on those two routes. For people who really want the miles, they'll be flying out of Pearson with AC for other destinations. It's not like anybody will want the points so bad that they'll fly to Montreal via Newark on Continental.
In reality, what we are talking about here is a different market. CO is offering Torontonians a chance to feed into its hubs directly. I am really curious if this will take some of the steam out of the crowd that drives to Buffalo for flights. What Continental is offering is access to extra-regional flights. Not the stuff that a Q400 can reach. But say a quick hop to Cleveland and from there to California.
Here in Ottawa, when people talk about Porter it's not the lounge (which wasn't there for a long time). It's the in-flight service. And it's catching on. It's become the new in-thing for public servants and military personnel. Many of us were forced to travel to many of Porter's destinations on AC Jazz, not mainline AC. This means that Porter's service is a massive difference. I have long held that Porter is competing with Jazz not mainline AC. Hearing random strangers talk about Porter in and around town has validated my thesis for me.
I think over time, Porter will get more connecting passengers. It's US routes just aren't as well known to the non-Toronto crowd. But I also think that the CO and PD aren't exactly competing in the same market. While Newark is a major market for Porter, CO will use Newark traffic largely to feed its network. It's not quite the same target market. Though Continental has the advantage of not having to rely solely on terminating passengers at Newark and Cleveland.
sjc
Active Member
I would suppose the Continental flights would actually be Continental Connection flights operated by Colgan Air?
I think schedule is another important differentiator. There is a big difference between 3 times a day and 10 times a day when you want to switch to a different flight because your schedule has changed.
I would think that Continental would focus on scheduling their flights to feed into connecting flights, rather than for the convenience of people ending their journey in New York or Cleveland.
sjc
Active Member
casaguy
Senior Member
I am MORE THAN HAPPY to forfeit my aeroplan points in order to have a superior travel experience on Porter.
I wonder how much Colgan's image has been hurt after the deadly Buffalo Q400 crash. I may be wrong, but for some reason I expect that Porter's flight crew is far more experienced and much better paid. At least I hope so.
Roy G Biv
Senior Member
Lets get Emirates and the 380 here. Make it happen. Perhaps a Harrier version.