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But it is not property taxes and it is a made up number based on a made up alternative land use. The city can keep trying all it wants to get this amount of money but there is no basis in law for it and refusing the offered settlement (or refusing to negotiate a different figure) is exactly what has them collecting nothing....and simultaneously blocking them from getting the regular future payments based on the $.94 per passenger on offer (which i understand is what Pearson pays).

It is called payments-in-liue-of taxes. I don't know legal background of it, however it is legitimate. You cannot refuse to pay. Unless you are a Federal Government Agency I guess.

And again, $31m unpaid taxes covers 14 years, means $2m/year. So, it sounds fair, even little bit low to me.

I have my own little theory on one of the roadblocks here and it may be that those opposed to the airport have a particular fear of accepting a payment per rider plan. Inherently, then, the city would have a vested financial interest in seeing more passengers as their revenue would increase....just a theory.

Never thought that way. However I think drop in real estate prices, tax income, additional traffic problems, etc would not worth $1 a passenger. On the other hand, OMERS (Ontario Municipal Employees Retirement System) is one of the biggest shareholders of Porter Airlines (other than Mr. Deluce of course), what do you think about this?
 
It is called payments-in-liue-of taxes. I don't know legal background of it, however it is legitimate. You cannot refuse to pay. Unless you are a Federal Government Agency I guess.

It is quite the opposite. No municipality can demand payment of PILTs. It is a program run by/administered by the Public Works department of the federal government and all amounts paid are at their discretion. Municipalities have to apply to receive PILTs. It is a program that has been run this way for over half a century and is a result of Federally owned property being constitutionally exempt from the payment of property taxes.

Here is a bit of reading on PILTs

http://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/biens-property/peri-pilt/fichernmt-factsheet-eng.html



Never thought that way. However I think drop in real estate prices, tax income, additional traffic problems, etc would not worth $1 a passenger. On the other hand, OMERS (Ontario Municipal Employees Retirement System) is one of the biggest shareholders of Porter Airlines (other than Mr. Deluce of course), what do you think about this?

Not sure that drops in real estate prices factor into what a PILT should be but even if it did, would you not have to first show there has been a drop in real estate prices? And then show prove that it is related to the airport? I would suggest that over the time that Porter has been operating (heck over the 75 or so years the airport has been operating) real estate prices have increased (not saying it is because of the airport or Porter but it would be very difficult/impossible to show there has been a drop).

What do I think of OMERS owning an equity stake in Porter? I have no opinion on it because I am not, either, a contributor to OMERS nor a pensioner benefiting from OMERS. In general, though, Pension Plans have only two goals with their investments 1) security of the capital invested on behalf of their members and 2) growth in the capital to meet the future pension needs of their members. Clearly, in the minds of the board of OMERS, Porter is contributing to those goals.

Canadians, in general, have a love hate relationship with their pensions and the investments chosen. A lot of the commonly "hated" businesses in this country are contributing to our future retirements. One of the most heatedly discussed deals in my memory was the sale of the 407.....one of the major investors in that deal is the Canada Pension Plan.....so while we hate the fact that a road has been privatized and profits are being made...we like that the profits are contributing to the solvency of our national pension plan. Similarly, we all love to hate our banks and the profits they make......there are few RRSPs or pension plans in this country that do not derive a decent amount of benefit from the success of our banks.
 
http://metronews.ca/news/toronto/87...norm-kelly-hopes-to-delay-vote-until-january/

Deputy Mayor Norm Kelly, a leading supporter of Porter Airlines’ proposal to expand the island airport, altered course Wednesday, saying he will move Thursday to delay a council committee vote on the issue until January.

“This is a complicated issue and I want to make sure as many of the objections (as possible) can be addressed,” Kelly told the media on Wednesday. “I don’t want to risk its defeat. I want to try and talk to as many people as possible, address their concerns… And then have that full and fulsome debate at committee.”

Kelly had been pushing for a vote as recently as last week, in the face of a city staff report calling that “premature.” He met with Mayor Rob Ford — also a supporter of expanding Billy Bishop Airport — on Wednesday, with Porter’s proposal on their agenda.

Mayor Ford does not agree with Kelly's timid approach

Kelly added that he and Ford are “seeking the same goal,” and we will know Thursday if the two are “seeking it in the same procedural way.”

Ford, however, perhaps felt differently about their discussion. “We have different views, let’s put it that way. I want to move ahead,” Ford said while speaking with reporters at city hall. “There is no sense in sitting on the fence and I think that is what is happening right now.”

Sitting on the fence is a good description of what is happening. Councillor's are divided into two camps. Most on the left are opposed to Porters plans with some even advocating closing the airport altogether and then you have the other camp of Councillor's - who normally should be in favor of this proposal trying to kick the can down the road. Rob Ford is the only person on council who seems to have the guts to stand up and be counted!

EDIT

Within minutes of typing my above comments I received this email from Robert Deluce

SupPorters:

Your demonstration of support has been overwhelming. In the past four days, over 7,000 emails have flooded inboxes at city hall and our social media sites have been alight with your messages.

Earlier this afternoon, Deputy Mayor Norm Kelly indicated that at tomorrow’s Executive Committee meeting he will propose deferring a decision about Porter’s CS100 proposal until early 2014. This means that the proposal will not be heard by the full city council on December 16, 2013.

This is a positive step forward. It will give the city more time to review the proposal and resolve outstanding questions related to the city staff report.

We’re making great progress and should be encouraged by this news. This makes it much more likely that the matter will be positively resolved in early 2014.

Your support remains as important as ever. Please continue to promote positive and factual information – Executive Committee and Toronto city councillors still need to hear from you.

Best regards,

Robert Deluce
President and CEO
Porter Airlines Inc.

In view of what happened today it is probably best that a decision be put off a few more weeks until January. I suspect it's going to be another circus at city hall tomorrow and the Porter proposal will not get the consideration it deserves.
 
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http://metronews.ca/news/toronto/87...norm-kelly-hopes-to-delay-vote-until-january/

Mayor Ford does not agree with Kelly's timid approach

...

Rob Ford is the only person on council who seems to have the guts to stand up and be counted!

Ford's bluster and bully approach to getting his views passed on council are a detriment, not an asset. When it comes to city council, negotiation and compromise are the paths to victory, something I think the Fords are incapable of understanding. Given the potential impact this proposal would have on a number of different groups it deserves to be discussed and examined from every angle.
 
A note to noise arguments:

This morning (December 05, 2013) 4 planes started their engines at 06:30am, and took off between 06:45 - 07:00am. I measured noise level in my apartment during that duration, and it was between 40-50 dBA. With proposed expansion, number of movements per day can be increased from 202 up to 440, which means a take-off or landing per 2 minutes. This means I should expect Leq, 16hr > 50 dBA in my apartment. I do not live very close to the airport, in fact I am pretty far away from the NEF 25 contour. Buildings on west end of the Queens Quay are more exposed to airport noise and probably will record approximately 10 dBA more than me.

According to Environmental Noise Guideline issued by Ontario Ministry of the Environment, indoor aircraft noise limit given for living/dining/den areas of residences, hospitals, schools, nursing / retirement homes and daycare centers is "NEF 5", which is approximately Leq, 24hr 36-39dBA. Even current exposure is more than that for those living next to the airport.

The root of all these noise issue is TPA's calculation method, which calculates noise exposure "per aircraft" instead of measuring overall noise load. Many other city airports (London is a good example) use static permanent stations to measure overall noise load, which is the "real" noise what people are exposed to. For those who don't live on the waterfront or have some hearing disabilities, it is not easy to understand the difference between "calculated" and "measured" noise exposure; thus we have Porter fanboys keep arguing how "whisper jets" are quiet.

I purchased my apartment after reviewing the noise contours published by TPA and the tripartite agreement. Therefore I think I have the right to demand City of Toronto, TPA and Federal Government to enforce the regulations and provide the minimum standards given in "Environmental Noise Guideline issued by Ontario Ministry of the Environment" to the residents of the Waterfront.

I did not classified Waterfront as a residential area, I did not draw the noise contours, I did not sign a disclosure or got a warning from City of Toronto when I purchased my apartment that minimum environmental or health standards may not be achievable in this area. On contrary, I was assured by three levels of Government that Waterfront is a "noise sensitive residential zone" and airport operations are under strict control.

Don't be surprised if Waterfront residents start launching lawsuits against TPA, City of Toronto and the Federal Government.
 
A note to noise arguments:

This morning (December 05, 2013) 4 planes started their engines at 06:30am, and took off between 06:45 - 07:00am. I measured noise level in my apartment during that duration, and it was between 40-50 dBA. With proposed expansion, number of movements per day can be increased from 202 up to 440, which means a take-off or landing per 2 minutes. This means I should expect Leq, 16hr > 50 dBA in my apartment. I do not live very close to the airport, in fact I am pretty far away from the NEF 25 contour. Buildings on west end of the Queens Quay are more exposed to airport noise and probably will record approximately 10 dBA more than me.

I think that if you lived around Kipling/Finch that the noise would be a whole lot worse. There unfortunately seems to be a double standard with rich downtown residents and the island airport vs. poor Rexdale residents and Pearson. My impression is that the noise standing right on Queen's Quay is significantly less severe than in Rexdale even though the latter is further from the airport.
 
I think that if you lived around Kipling/Finch that the noise would be a whole lot worse. There unfortunately seems to be a double standard with rich downtown residents and the island airport vs. poor Rexdale residents and Pearson. My impression is that the noise standing right on Queen's Quay is significantly less severe than in Rexdale even though the latter is further from the airport.

Environmental Noise Guideline is applicable to all, there is no difference between "poor" or "rich" neighborhoods. Also I do not have any problem supporting any action taken against government as well as against private corporations and companies who think they can privatize the air we breath. It is not nymbism, it is the right to live in a healthy environment.

Union Station-Pearson Express is a good example, I strongly support that it should be an electrified line, not diesel. We have enough air pollution in the area and diesel trains definitely will not help. For that matter, stealing passengers from Pearson to Billy Bishop will only cause spending more taxpayers money to finance $450m project and more delays in full electrification.

On the other hand, I don't understand why everybody thinks people living at Harbourfront are rich. I am not rich. My friends house in "poor" Rexdale is more expensive than my condo in "rich" Waterfront. If I were rich, I would prefer to live in a house with a backyard, swimming pool and a heated double car garage. Unfortunately with my budget, either I have to commute more than 2 hours a day, or settle for a smaller size condo in downtown.

Also I believe Pearson is doing a better job than TPA in noise management. They do have permanent noise monitoring stations and actually "measuring" the noise exposure. You can see the map of the stations here:

http://www.torontopearson.com/uploa..._Monitoring_Terminal_Locations_Map_032013.pdf

Their NEF contour is also more realistic, 25 NEF line is a far as 17km away from the airport. At Billy Bishop, TPA claims that public school across the runway falls beyond the 25 NEF contour.

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On the other hand, I don't understand why everybody thinks people living at Harbourfront are rich. I am not rich. My friends house in "poor" Rexdale is more expensive than my condo in "rich" Waterfront.

This is a very good point. I think this is an important discussion and should be debated with a level of seriousness. I wish that people inclined to support the airport expansion did so by discussing facts and not attribute some unproven (and irrelevant) characteristic to those who don't. Similarly, I wish that those opposed to the airport (either as is or expanded) would do so by discussing facts without assuming that everyone with a different opinion was a "porter fanboy".

This is far to serious an issue to tumble down to name calling.
 
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Critics of Porter’s plan for jets at Toronto island airport are way off course

Forces are lining up against the bid by Porter Airlines to get permission to fly jets out of the Toronto island airport. That is a shame, because many of the objections to allowing jets are weak or capable of being resolved with a little effort.

When Porter first made its proposal, the biggest concerns were about noise from the jets and how a lengthened runway would encroach on the harbour and the lake. Those concerns have since faded.

A report from City of Toronto staff concedes that the Bombardier CS100 jets that Porter wants to fly would “likely” meet existing noise limits, even if we won’t know for sure till the plane is certified by next May. An attached consultants report says the plane is “expected to be certified with noise levels similar” to the turboprops Porter flies at present and that the new planes should “operate at or below” current noise limits.

In any case, Bombardier has guaranteed Porter that the plane will meet the limits. Consultants also conclude that the new jets – part of a quieter, cleaner new generation of aviation technology – will meet air-pollution standards.

As for the runway, Porter wants to lengthen it by up to 200 metres on each end to let the jets land and take off. Opponents say this would mean “paving the lake,” as Adam Vaughan, Porter’s fiercest city-council critic, once put it. But the consultants who reported on the issue found that the longer runway would “maintain the existing depth” of the current Marine Exclusion Zone, a buoyed-off area to keep boats away from planes. In other words, boats would still have just as much room in the harbour, though the buoyed zone might have to be widened slightly for the rebuilt runway.

A report from City of Toronto staff concedes that the Bombardier CS100 jets that Porter wants to fly would “likely” meet existing noise limits, even if we won’t know for sure till the plane is certified by next May. An attached consultants report says the plane is “expected to be certified with noise levels similar” to the turboprops Porter flies at present and that the new planes should “operate at or below” current noise limits.

In any case, Bombardier has guaranteed Porter that the plane will meet the limits. Consultants also conclude that the new jets – part of a quieter, cleaner new generation of aviation technology – will meet air-pollution standards.

As for the runway, Porter wants to lengthen it by up to 200 metres on each end to let the jets land and take off. Opponents say this would mean “paving the lake,” as Adam Vaughan, Porter’s fiercest city-council critic, once put it. But the consultants who reported on the issue found that the longer runway would “maintain the existing depth” of the current Marine Exclusion Zone, a buoyed-off area to keep boats away from planes. In other words, boats would still have just as much room in the harbour, though the buoyed zone might have to be widened slightly for the rebuilt runway.

With the greater noise and lake-paving arguments debunked, opponents have been shifting their line of attack. They now say it is not so much what would happen to noise levels or the lake waters that is the issue. It is what would happen on the ground. Mr. Vaughan argues that it would cost as much as half a billion dollars to build better infrastructure to deal with the increased traffic that jets would bring to the airport.

Spending that much would be extravagant and, fortunately, it should not be necessary. The number of flights that can travel in and out of the island is limited by the fact that it has only one runway. The number of slots for arriving and departing planes is expected to remain the same.

The number of passengers could go up regardless because the jets are bigger and carry more passengers than the turboprops. Consultants estimate it could lead to an “incremental increase” in the airport’s capacity, to 4.3 million passengers a year from 3.8 million at present. In a high-growth scenario, that could grow to 4.8 million. But if the worry is that the airport will just keep growing and growing with no end in sight, why not negotiate with Porter to put a cap on the number of annual passengers?

The passenger tunnel currently being built under the Western Gap should ease the flow of the increased traffic. More work will be needed to make sure that vehicular and other travel to the airport from the city side does not grow tangled, as it can do even now.

This is the most legitimate of the concerns about the jets proposal, but it is far from insuperable. The city staff report’s estimate of $180-million to $300-million for ground-side infrastructure includes expensive projects like tunnels, bridges and streetcar lines that may not be necessary. Better airport shuttle service and a few road improvements could make a big difference. Consultants put the cost of one round of road upgrades at just $2-million to $3-million.

The airport is a valuable asset for Toronto. An ambitious city would try to overcome the concerns over introducing jets, not allow itself to be paralyzed by them.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...d-airport-are-way-off-course/article15777188/
 
I would believe those contours, the jets flying out of Pearson are much, much louder than Billy Bishop. Billy Bishop also has steeper landing and take off angles, which means the planes "leave" much faster.

also, the "its not nimbyism" is an arguement made by all nimbys. "its not nimbyism, its a right to not have a tower shadowing my house", "its not nimbyism, its the concern over increased traffic", etc.
 
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I would beleive those contours, the jets flying out of Pearson are much, much louder than Billy Bishop. Billy Bishop also has steeper landing and take off angles, which means the planes "leave" much faster.

They also turn away from the city (south) almost as soon as they are airborne.

I guess I will have to do some reading on what 25 NEF means in real life...but my observation of the Pearson graphic shown above has me a bit doubting. I have lived most of my life in Brampton...always north of Queen/Highway 7.

My current home we have been in for about 10 years.....and a laymen looking at that map would think "I guess you never hear the planes?". That was true, mostly, for about the first 8 years there.

Something, however, has changed. We literally have to interrupt backyard conversations on a regular basis now because we simply can't hear each other speaking. Guests in our yard who used to comment on "how cool it is to see the planes without hearing them" now comment "wow, how can you put up with that".

So, either that chart is a bit out of date....or the fact that they are not measuring anywhere close to our house is skewing the results....or the noise inside that 25 NEF is unbearable.....because, like i said, every few minutes for the last few summers, our backyard conversations have to pause...;)
 
the map does show a large area north of Queen inside of the noise contour.. and even inside of the 30 contour (though that area is largely industrial)
 
the map does show a large area north of Queen inside of the noise contour.. and even inside of the 30 contour (though that area is largely industrial)

Yeah....the house i grew up in as a teenager is within that and man was it loud! I can assure you the noise contour shown above does not go anywhere near my current residence. We are nowhere as loud as that childhood home...but, as I said, have seen the noise levels increase over the past two/three years to the point of conversation interuptus.
 
TOareafan:

The interesting thing in your observation is that it is probably fair to argue that you probably have a mix of planes that are in general more technologically advanced and quieter than before. The point being - it's important to test how the plane will actually perform in the TIA setting.

AoD
 
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TOareafan:

The interesting thing in your observation is that it is probably fair to argue that you probably have a mix of planes that are in general more technologically advanced and quieter than before. The point being - it's important to test how the plane will actually perform in the TIA setting.

AoD

There is sure a mix of planes up there....they seem to be flying lower, more often, earlier and later over our part of town.....I guess things do change!
 

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