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If the runway is extended, won't the marine exclusion zone have to be extended also?

They (Porter + TPA) say no but I'm not sure as they are proven to be not reliable. Probably once runway is extended they will seek for another amendment to extend the marine exclusion zone, or even the runway itself due to safety concerns, which nobody can say no.

A good feasibility study is a must before making any decision.
 
Here we go:

The Star, Tuesday April 16th, 2013

.. Controversial request to lengthen the runway won’t seem as excessive, soon, when Transport Canada demands a 150-metre extension into the lake for safety reasons, Deluce said in an exclusive interview.

.. Deluce says Transport Canada is in the midst of an initiative aimed at creating runway safety areas at all airports — an international push to add unpaved safety areas in case an airline overshoots the runway. Pearson has already installed such zones; Billy Bishop’s turn is coming, so as much as 150 metres of lake will have to be filled in to create the zone. His request represents only a further 18 metres of fill.


How calm Deluce's minimum extension requirement for his new jets (168m) can be higher than Transport Canada's minimum safety requirement (150m)? Something is wrong here.

Based on this data, expect another runway extension to meet with Transport Canada's new recommendations.
 
How calm Deluce's minimum extension requirement for his new jets (168m) can be higher than Transport Canada's minimum safety requirement (150m)? Something is wrong here.
Good question. The answer might be as simple as that the new jets only need an extra 36 metres (18 metres on each side), and Porter included the 150 metres that would also be required; if true, it's very sensible, not not very political.

But perhaps that isn't the answer.
 
Yes, and it is illegal. This should be enough to say "no" to them without even listening what they want.

Since when is lobbying illegal. And my comment was referring to a poor job lobbying because simply lobbying the mayor when you need 23 votes on council is pointless.


Yes, in third world countries; just "tip" politicians and do whatever you want.

I'm no fan of the mayor but I see no reason to resort to libel or slander. Since when is a courtesy "heads up" about a major announcement by a major local business and employer, corruption? I would expect the same if TD Bank wanted to put up another tower inside the 416.

May be I'm too idealistic but I refuse the bend over to a corporation who thinks it can do anything through good connections above and show no respect to the community.

I fail to see what their "connections" (which are mostly over-inflated by conspiracy theorists) have gotten them so far. If they were that well connected, why is there no bridge to the Island or large A320s flying there?

Can you please tell us what kind of economical benefits are we looking at?

For starters, a thousand jobs directly from this expansion alone. And I assume that many of those employees will actually want to stay in core, close to work. More broadly, according to economists the average domestic air fare in Canada has declined from $350 to $250, largely due to competition. Porter keeping this pressure up directly benefits Toronto. It makes it easier for tourists and businesses to connect with Toronto. There's a reason you'll pay a lot more for a Winnipeg-Regina flight than you will for Toronto-Ottawa. And that reason is competition. If Porter disappeared tomorrow, Air Canada and Westjet would benefit a ton, at the expense of Toronto.
 
If the expansion is "very modest" how would it have a "substantial" economic benefit to this city? The modifiers you've used do not equate. I think that actual numbers would put the lie to that sort of weasel language.

It's only weasel language to those who don't understand the physics of how airplanes work or what any engineer would define as "substantial". I doubt you'll find any engineer who thinks this runway expansion is some grand challenge. I'd say the tunnel was a much bigger deal and probably had a much higher environmental impact (with regards to construction).

And yes, it's not a contradiction. The extra thousand feet is at best 25% extension (not quite in reality because a lot will be going to the required over-run areas), but that extensions would allow Porter to operate flights across the continent. I expect there will be a noticeable decline in trans-continental fares making it much cheaper for tourists and businesspeople from Vancouver and Calgary to visit Toronto. That benefit will be disproportionate to any impact that the runway will have (which in reality will be negligible).

Schadenfreude.

But this is not what I'm trying to discuss, I don't even want to go there; doesn't worth it. My concern is ethics, I can live near an airport but I cannot live with corruption around me.

Oh please. You aren't concerned about ethics. If you were, you'd be here armed with facts and not insinuations and conjecture. You're a NIMBY crying crocodile tears about ethics. It's no different than Community AIR taking up for the strikers at Porter. I'm sure they are so concerned for them that they'd rather see their work conditions improve by ensuring they don't work again!

Why aren't other runway options being considered such as only extending the runway to the west or building a new airport elsewhere on The Island by doing a landswap with the city? I support a bigger airport and more service but limiting it to TPA lands seems too limiting, confrontational and simple-minded. We need a mature, calm planning discussion with more options than ones presented.

Every other runway would have a much higher impact on the city, since it would involve approaches and departures over the downtown core. Unacceptable.

And there isn't really room anywhere else on the Island for a swap. And again, that's aside from the reality that relocation would probably lead to a higher impact on the city too.

If the runway is extended, won't the marine exclusion zone have to be extended also?

I don't get why this myth won't die. Porter has said it won't need to be extended. The TPA has said it won't need to be extended. And sheer logic will tell you it won't need to be extended. The general goal of the MEZ is to ensure that boats (particularly those with masts) don't interfere with air traffic and vice versa. Even with this extension, aircraft are lifting off substantially behind the runway edge (because of the safety area....pilots can't incorporate this length into take-off calculations). This means that aircraft will be fairly high crossing the MEZ boundary (I would guess 100-200ft....well beyond the 50 ft. minimum required by law). There is no worry of a collision between an aircraft and a mast. And just to be really safe, the airport is usually informed when there are tall ships in the harbour. And they are usually advised to maintain clearance from the MEZ.

Those crowing about the MEZ being extended are largely boaters who have gotten so used to violating the MEZ over the last couple of years that the TPA actually enforcing the MEZ strikes them as an extension! It's nothing of the sort.
 
How calm Deluce's minimum extension requirement for his new jets (168m) can be higher than Transport Canada's minimum safety requirement (150m)? Something is wrong here.

Based on this data, expect another runway extension to meet with Transport Canada's new recommendations.

More spin based on ignorance.

There are already existing run-off areas at the airport. Look on Google Maps, you'll see areas at either end of the runway with yellow chevrons. That's the runoff area. The extension will simply displace the runoff area further. Think of it like adding length in the centre of the runway and pushing the runoff areas outward. Actually, it's also likely that Transport Canada will probably push to increase the length of the runoff area as well. I would be surprised if they don't.

So no, there's no violation of the law. And you can bet that Transport Canada would never allow such a thing.

You knew it was coming. WestJet and Air Canada want to fly their jets from the airport too.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...ng_jets_may_open_door_to_other_airlines.html]

Of course they want to. But can they? The noise restriction at Billy Bishop will not allow any mainline aircraft from Air Canada or Westjet to qualify to fly into YTZ. And Porter isn't asking for any changes to those. In fact, if Deluce is devious he may well ask for even higher noise standards (which only his fleet would qualify for). They may fly in Q400s like Porter does now. Air Canada does this from Montreal. But it doesn't seem like Westjet has any intention to fly the Q400 into YTZ. Any Q400s deployed in Ontario will be based at Pearson to feed Westjet's hub there. Finally, they have to get slots. There aren't any available at the moment. And when they did come up for bid the last time, Westjet didn't bid and Air Canada wasn't actually interested in anything more than Montreal (once the TPA told them that they'd favour more destinations out of YTZ).

So they are blowing smoke. They are hoping to scare the gullible (and look how many there are!) with visions of 737s and A320s landing at Billy Bishop when noise restriction and even the new runway length won't allow for it. I don't blame them for trying to deceive the public. If I were the CEO of AC or Westjet, I'd try to mislead the public too. I would, however, hope that the authorities and elected officials who have to approve these ideas don't fall prey to PR spin and can actually educate themselves on topic and make an informed decision.
 
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Since when is lobbying illegal.

Since it was done secretly behind the closed doors. To my infomation (please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not a lawyer) you need to register ALL your lobbying activities in city's lobbiest register. Mr. Deluce didn't do that. Porter Airlines later made a statement and blamed the omission on an “administrative oversightâ€.

Since when is a courtesy "heads up" about a major announcement by a major local business and employer, corruption?

Since it was done secretly behind the doors.

I fail to see what their "connections" (which are mostly over-inflated by conspiracy theorists) have gotten them so far. If they were that well connected, why is there no bridge to the Island or large A320s flying there?

They would if they could.
 
Since it was done secretly behind the doors.
Coke has clearly been communicating with the Mayor's office regarding their recent expansion and move downtown (judging by the mayor's appearance at their opening). Should they have registered as lobbyists? Did they?
 
Good question. The answer might be as simple as that the new jets only need an extra 36 metres (18 metres on each side), and Porter included the 150 metres that would also be required; if true, it's very sensible, not not very political.

But perhaps that isn't the answer.

It's not some percentage. You need hard 150m at either end. The specific length is actually based on a TC assessment. The existing runway is something like 4590 feet of which 3988 is allowed for operational use. The 600ft runoff area is more than adequate for the Q400 and trips flown today. But since the 150m rule came in quite recently, TC does insist that when renovations or extensions are done that this is accomodated (either through ops restrictions or physical reservation). So effectively, most of the proposed extension will be going towards the runoff area and YTZ will end up with a 4100 ft runway on Island itself. That's sufficient for where Porter wants to fly to. But not so sufficient as to make it commercially viable for anything larger. And that's probably by design.
 
It's not some percentage. You need hard 150m at either end. The specific length is actually based on a TC assessment. The existing runway is something like 4590 feet of which 3988 is allowed for operational use. The 600ft runoff area is more than adequate for the Q400 and trips flown today. But since the 150m rule came in quite recently, TC does insist that when renovations or extensions are done that this is accomodated (either through ops restrictions or physical reservation). So effectively, most of the proposed extension will be going towards the runoff area and YTZ will end up with a 4100 ft runway on Island itself. That's sufficient for where Porter wants to fly to. But not so sufficient as to make it commercially viable for anything larger. And that's probably by design.
But does the 168 m extension that Porter want, include the 150 m that will have to be done anyway, or will it actually be 318 m (at each end)?

If what we are looking at, at a minimum to maintain the status quo, is a 150 metre extension. And to operate the jets we only need 18 metres more ... than this is really making a mountain out of a mole hill. And really badly handled by Porter, which should have presented it differently.
 
Since it was done secretly behind the closed doors. To my infomation (please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not a lawyer) you need to register ALL your lobbying activities in city's lobbiest register. Mr. Deluce didn't do that. Porter Airlines later made a statement and blamed the omission on an “administrative oversight”.

A take-note discussion would not be considered lobbying. And it's not clear at all that they provided any more information to the Mayor than they did to Karen Stintz. She assumed that Porter was just going to announce new destinations. She didn't think it was a proposed expansion. Unless you have any actual evidence that the mayor was specifically told about the expansion proposal, you've got no credibility on your attempt at slander.


Since it was done secretly behind the doors.

Even the TTC meets the mayor behind closed doors. Hardly anything nefarious. Are you now going to insist that absolutely every single piece of city business be done in public. I'm all for the city council working 18hrs a day in public with full broadcast on CPAC. But I suspect that not much will actually get done.


They would if they could.

Why? There is zero competitive advantage in doing that. The day they enable A320s to operate out of the Island is the day that Air Canada and Westjet move in and bleed them to deah. Indeed, if you actually want to kill Porter that's the fastest way to do it.

The noise restrictions highly protect and favour Porter. Ditto for the limited runway length. Porter has built a fleet that lets them operate within those restrictions. Their competitors haven't done that. And they never will. Westjet exclusively flies Boeing. And Boeing will not have an aircraft that is as quiet or as capable of operating from a short runway as the CS100, in the next decade. Air Canada flies Embraers and Airbuses. And neither of those companies is producing anything within the next decade that is comparable to the CS100. Porter will be sitting pretty for a long time. The only way Air Canada and Westjet can compete (if they want to) is to spend billions converting over to the CS100. Would be great for Canada's economy if they did....
 
More spin based on ignorance. There are already existing run-off areas at the airport. Look on Google Maps, you'll see areas at either end of the runway with yellow chevrons. That's the runoff area.

Please excuse my ignorance, and re-read the statement:

"Deluce says Transport Canada is in the midst of an initiative aimed at creating runway safety areas at all airports — an international push to add unpaved safety areas in case an airline overshoots the runway. Pearson has already installed such zones; Billy Bishop’s turn is coming, so as much as 150 metres of lake will have to be filled in to create the zone. His request represents only a further 18 metres of fill."

My understanding is, additional 150m UNPAVED safety zone is not installed at Billy Bishop airport yet, and once installed it will be an extension to existing PAVED run-off. Please correct me.

Actually, it's also likely that Transport Canada will probably push to increase the length of the runoff area as well. I would be surprised if they don't.

This is what we are discussing.

So no, there's no violation of the law. And you can bet that Transport Canada would never allow such a thing.

Correct. Question is, are those 150m additional unpaved run-offs have been included in Porter's 168m calculation or not. What is your opinion?

I would, however, hope that the authorities and elected officials who have to approve these ideas don't fall prey to PR spin and can actually educate themselves on topic and make an informed decision.

Couldn't agree more.
 
Unless you have any actual evidence that the mayor was specifically told about the expansion proposal, you've got no credibility on your attempt at slander.

Thursday April 11, 2013; Toronto Sun: "The mayor said he spoke with Porter president Bob Deluce “a few days ago†and was briefed on the plan." (Lie)

Friday April 12, 2013; The Globe and Mail: "Porter Airlines chief executive officer Robert Deluce met privately with Mr. Ford on Feb. 12 and again on March 19 with officials in the mayor’s office to discuss the company’s plan to buy jets capable of long-haul flights and extend the island airport’s runway. The meetings were not included in the city’s lobbyist registry. In an e-mail to The Globe and Mail on Thursday, a Porter Airlines spokesman blamed the omission on an “administrative oversight,†and said the registry has since been updated." (More lies)

Friday April 12, 2013; The Globe and Mail: "The Globe interviewed several councillors on Thursday, all of whom expressed surprise that they were not told in advance about a plan that cannot go ahead without their approval. “I’m not happy about the fact that somebody wouldn’t have notified me,†said Councillor Frank Di Giorgio. “I should have got a heads up.†Mr. Di Giorgio is among seven councillors who responded to an invitation from Porter Airlines to tour its operation at the island in recent months. He and his colleague, Councillor John Parker, visited Porter on Jan. 31. Mr. Di Giorgio said there was no mention during the one-hour tour by Mr. Deluce or other Porter executives about expanding beyond the cities the airline was already serving."

Friday April 12, 2013; The Globe and Mail: "Under the city by-law governing lobbying, an individual who fails to register their activities can face a substantial fine."
 

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