Toronto Billy Bishop Toronto City Airport | ?m | ?s | Ports Toronto | Arup

[TOareaFan]

Porter seems to have made things official, they are going to ask for a runway extension and a overturn of the jet ban.

https://www.porterplans.com/

Watching the presser now (live feed on cbc.ca).....extension to the runway at both ends is requested....about the size of the western gap added at either end (total of 168m)........no change to the marine boundry.

Seem to be moving on the jets thing based on the noise profile and noting that at the time the ban was imposed no one could have anticipated jets that are as quiet, fuel efficient and econo friendly as the CS100.

I guess the 551 foot extension to the runway is what allows them to show routes as far away as Vancouver and LA.

https://www.porterplans.com/New-Routes

 

[bleu]

Porter seems to have made things official, they are going to ask for a runway extension and a overturn of the jet ban.

https://www.porterplans.com/

that's what I have been dreaming about!
Porter has to expand to farther destination to grow, especially South and west US. Maybe London and Paris in the future!
There are very limited places worth flying to in Canada. I don't know why they are flying to Timmins, Thunder Bay or Windsor. Has to be really expensive to break even.

 

[kEiThZ]

Actually the province owns most of the land the airport sits on, and the lease reverts in 2033.

Got to love how all the promises of no jets, no runway expansions by Deluce himself turns out eh?

AoD

I did not know that. Does that apply to the Island Residents too?

 

[44 North]

"The Toronto Port Authority has absolutely no intention of expanding the runway" - TPA, 2012

1,100 ft runway expansion (168m at both ends) - TPA, today

The TPA is pretty damn rogue if you ask me. Just like other rogue agency TPLC/Tedco (the group Doug had secret meetings with). I thought the formation of WaterfrontTO was to remove backdoor planning and hidden agendas regarding different interests and the waterfront.

People rag on Miller claiming he's responsible for the decades of poor planning and "wall of condos" owning the waterfront, when in actuality it was THC/TPA. Even to this day, TPA is responsible for poor planning with its Waterlink Pier 27 condo that has a 400m dead end promenade that turns a public realm into a useless joke.

 

[bleu]

"The Toronto Port Authority has absolutely no intention of expanding the runway" - TPA, 2012

1,100 ft runway expansion (168m at both ends) - TPA, today

The TPA is pretty damn rogue if you ask me. Just like other rogue agency TPLC/Tedco (the group Doug had secret meetings with). I thought the formation of WaterfrontTO was to remove backdoor planning and hidden agendas regarding different interests and the waterfront.

this is how modern democracy works. You have to lie and say things you don't mean to get what you really want eventually.
Didn't the liberal government promise no tax increase and then increased all sorts of shaddy tax a couple of years later?
A promise means absolutely nothing. It is not a legal contract. It is just a tool to get what you want.
If that is rogue, what is not?

 

[TOareaFan]

"The Toronto Port Authority has absolutely no intention of expanding the runway" - TPA, 2012

1,100 ft runway expansion (168m at both ends) - TPA, today

The TPA is pretty damn rogue if you ask me. Just like other rogue agency TPLC/Tedco (the group Doug had secret meetings with). I thought the formation of WaterfrontTO was to remove backdoor planning and hidden agendas regarding different interests and the waterfront.

People rag on Miller claiming he's responsible for the decades of poor planning and "wall of condos" owning the waterfront, when in actuality it was THC/TPA. Even to this day, TPA is responsible for poor planning with its Waterlink Pier 27 condo that has a 400m dead end promenade that turns a public realm into a useless joke.

It is a 551 ft expansion....the 168m is the total...split, roughly, 50% to the west and 50% to the east.

 

[kEiThZ]

Seem to be moving on the jets thing based on the noise profile and noting that at the time the ban was imposed no one could have anticipated jets that are as quiet, fuel efficient and econo friendly as the CS100.

If anybody cared about the environment or public interest at large, this would be a no-brainer. Unfortunately the Island airport debate is about neither. You have Island residents with a sweetheart property deal and waterfront residents with high priced condos who define their narrow interests as public interests.

that's what I have been dreaming about!
Porter has to expand to farther destination to grow, especially South and west US. Maybe London and Paris in the future!
There are very limited places worth flying to in Canada. I don't know why they are flying to Timmins, Thunder Bay or Windsor. Has to be really expensive to break even.

If Porter was so brave, it would actually be possible to fly the CS100 in an all business configuration (with 32-36 seats) to London-City non-stop. British Airways offers London-City to JFK with such a service with old Concorde flight numbers, BA001 and BA002. Wall Street to the City in 9 hrs. Theoretically Porter could promise the same to Bay Street. BA actually charges higher fares for its London City service than it does for business class tickets from London-Heathrow.

 

[TOareaFan]

A real add on benefit to the runway extension (if approved) is, I think, that Porter can maximize the use of their current fleet from Toronto. Less of the Q400s would be restricted in terms of the number of passengers/total payload and they could go farther with those planes.....no?

 

[kEiThZ]

"The Toronto Port Authority has absolutely no intention of expanding the runway" - TPA, 2012

1,100 ft runway expansion (168m at both ends) - TPA, today

They didn't and haven't extended the runway. I never took that statement to imply some commitment in perpetuity. Technology changes. The needs of the city evolve. It would have been pointless to extend the runway in the past. Just to give Porter slightly more range? They wouldn't have used the range anyway. Today you have an aircraft that is just as quiet. And Torontonians will be better served by cheaper airfares that competition will bring. There wasn't a case for extending the runway in the past. There is now.

I'd suggest that even until a few months ago, it would have been hard to tell whether Porter had a business case and the funds to make the CS100 work. Now that they do, there is a case for extension of the runway.

 

[sjc]

If Porter was so brave, it would actually be possible to fly the CS100 in an all business configuration (with 32-36 seats) to London-City non-stop. British Airways offers London-City to JFK with such a service with old Concorde flight numbers, BA001 and BA002.

The A318s that BA uses for that trip can't load up with enough fuel to cross the Atlantic and still take off from LCY, so they stop to refuel in Shannon (which conveniently has a US Immigration station). They make the return JFK-LCY trip non-stop.

Any YTZ-LCY trip would need to stop in both directions -- I wonder if St. John's is doable from LCY?

With respect to the issue of whether the province would get involved, the Tripartite Agreement is between the federal government, the Toronto Port Authority and the City of Toronto. I don't think there is any particular provincial role (except maybe for environment assessments?).

 

[dowlingm]

As someone who has defended PD/YTZ down the years, I read Porter's "what we're not asking for" with no little chagrin. Basically the Porter method to get what they want is: 1. Bombardier launch new product. 2. Bombardier gets few orders. 3. Feds get worried about their corporate welfare... err... loan guarantees. 4. Porter step in and say "we'll buy a bunch - but only if we get a Tripartite agreement variation".

kEiThZ: the BA001 model won't work in Toronto. That route is LCY-SNN-JFK-LCY. The A318 can take off with light fuel so no issues with takeoff length, land in Shannon, refuel *and clear US Customs and Immigration*. This means that the time taken for the fuel stop is made up for the fact that the flight lands as a domestic in JFK. Since Shannon doesn't have a Canadian preclearance facility, the same trick won't work there.

 

[k10ery]

It is a 551 ft expansion....the 168m is the total...split, roughly, 50% to the west and 50% to the east.

No, the media are pretty clear Deluce asked for 168m at each end. That's quite a bit!

 

[kEiThZ]

A real add on benefit to the runway extension (if approved) is, I think, that Porter can maximize the use of their current fleet from Toronto. Less of the Q400s would be restricted in terms of the number of passengers/total payload and they could go farther with those planes.....no?

Yes and no. Direct service to Halifax would be possible.

The biggest problem with the Q400 for Porter is luggage space. There isn't enough of it to serve further destinations (where people tend to take more luggage when not daytripping). So it will help. To a point.

The CS100 though is a true game changer. 5-abreast seating means 80% of seats are window or aisle. The seats are as wide as Air Canada's 777 economy seats and just an inch less wide than Air Canada's domestic business seats. The luggage volume is so huge that passengers can take roller bags on board. And if Porter configures these with 100 seats, you'll have legroom that's half way between Air Canada's Economy and Business and just shy of Westjet's Premium Economy service. All while these airplanes use less fuel than Air Canada's 90 seat Embraers, with a smaller noise footprint than the same.

I expect Air Canada and Westjet will be sending envelopes of cash to CAIR soon....

 

[kEiThZ]

As someone who has defended PD/YTZ down the years, I read Porter's "what we're not asking for" with no little chagrin. Basically the Porter method to get what they want is: 1. Bombardier launch new product. 2. Bombardier gets few orders. 3. Feds get worried about their corporate welfare... err... loan guarantees. 4. Porter step in and say "we'll buy a bunch - but only if we get a Tripartite agreement variation".

If you or I were in Deluce's shoes, we'd do the same. Who would buy planes without having a guarantee that there's somewhere to put them? And his job is to grow his business.

The government's job is to make sure that YTZ expansion is in the public interest. Personally, Porter or not, I do think expansion of the airport (and generally expansion of most infrastructure) is in the public interest.

kEiThZ: the BA001 model won't work in Toronto. That route is LCY-SNN-JFK-LCY. The A318 can take off with light fuel so no issues with takeoff length, land in Shannon, refuel *and clear US Customs and Immigration*. This means that the time taken for the fuel stop is made up for the fact that the flight lands as a domestic in JFK. Since Shannon doesn't have a Canadian preclearance facility, the same trick won't work there.

BA only uses Shannon preclearance because it gives them something to do while refuelling. And they have to refuel. The A318 cannot make it westbound without a fuel stop. So you might as well run the pax through US Immigration. The CS100 can make it westbound to New York or Toronto in an all-business config without a fuel stop. If the LCY runway was longer or if Bombardier succeeds in delivering more efficiency than promised the aircraft may be able to reach Chicago.

By the way, with recent US government cutbacks, at least one of the LCY flights won't be getting SNN preclearance.

With regards to such a hypothetical, there is CBSA service at YTZ, so I don't see any reason why there can't be a YTZ-LCY service other than business considerations. The main advantage is the closeness to the core in both cases. Not preclearance. Most of the crowd who would take such a service regularly probably have US Global Entry (GOES) or NEXUS in our case.

 

[kEiThZ]

No, the media are pretty clear Deluce asked for 168m at each end. That's quite a bit!

View attachment 12163

It is. I'm looking forward to the EA to see what the impact will be. I am hoping that by moving the rotation point for departing aircraft that noise impacts might actually be reduced.