Bicycle Paths

[Chuck]

I'd like to see Yonge reduced to two extra wide car lanes with the remainder of the street turned over to physically separated bike lanes and wider sidewalks. This should be done from Queen's Quay up to the bend north of St. Clair, at which point the street is wide enough to accommodate a different cross section.

 

[Hipster Duck]

Not to mention, up to St. Clair, both University/Avenue Rd. and Jarvis/Mount Pleasant are good alternate routes to Yonge for cars.

And I will echo what Sean said, either in this thread or somewhere else, about axing the 97 bus south of Davisville. There should be, however, a complementary Jarvis-Mount Pleasant bus that runs at decent arterial frequencies.

 

[gboykovekin]

If the city is going to create more bicycle lanes it should be in tandem with driver education about the rights of cyclists to use the full lane (if needed). I don't know how many times drivers have been confused by my use of the whole curb lane to thwart drivers from passing from behind or when turning left.

 

[nfitz]

... with driver education about the rights of cyclists to use the full lane (if needed). I don't know how many times drivers have been confused by my use of the whole curb lane to thwart drivers from passing from behind or when turning left.

Surely cyclists should have the right to use the full lane if needed ... but because they need it - not with the objective to thwart drivers.

Based on my experiences with with cyclists as a vehicle driver, and particularly as a pedestrian, cyclists also need much driver education.

 

[confusion]

cyclists also need much driver education.

blah blah blah, I'm sick of this line.

Cyclists needing driver education = cyclist being killed
Drivers needing driver education = cyclist being killed

obviously the priority of one trumps the other.

 

[Second_in_pie]

That's true, but there are some cyclists out there that should be more cautious/smart about drivers, pedestrians and even other cyclists who really need some help.

 

[nfitz]

blah blah blah, I'm sick of this line.

Cyclists needing driver education = cyclist being killed
Drivers needing driver education = cyclist being killed

obviously the priority of one trumps the other.

??????

I'm more worried about the poor pedestrians!

Cyclists needing driver education = pedestrian being injured.

Personally, I've never seen a car hit a cyclist (I know it happens frequently, I've just never seen it ... nor a pedestrian for that matter, though I've certainly seen accident scens of pedestrian hits after the impact).

I have however seen cyclists hit pedestrians. I've also been narrowly missed by cyclists on city sidewalks and shared pathways twice in the last 2 years - and both times the reaction of the cyclist was to hurl abuse at me. Which implies in my mind that there was poor education on the part of the cyclist.

Also I'd say, that in a comparision of cyclists to car drivers, I see a higher frequency of cyclists braking traffic regulations than I see car drivers.

You might well be sick of the line that cyclists need more training - but I'm sick of cyclists hitting pedestrians. How can you justify that?

Personally, I think that there should be a licensing procedure for anyone who wants to operate a bicycle on a city street. I'm mystified why I'm supposed to get a license for my cat that doesn't ever leave the house, but there is no licence required for someone cycling along busy sidewalks.

 

[waterloowarrior]

I'd be curious to see some statistics about these apparently very common pedestrian-cyclist collisions, injuries, and deaths... bicycles - the silent killer.

And why don't pedestrians need licenses? About 120 pedestrians are killed and 5,000 are injured each year (in ON). Most are at fault... most collisions are at intersections. I think that there should be a licensing procedure for anyone who wants to cross a city street

 

[gboykovekin]

I believe that if everyone put the pedestrian first on the totem pole than we wouldn't have as many close-collisions as we have currently.

When I'm walking, I am sure to take drivers to account if they don't stop at right turns and almost run me over. As a cyclist, I'll stop at curbs before turning and before streetcar doors.

I've gotten tickets while bicycling for doing what I see drivers do everyday, yet I still went to court and sometimes successfully fought them - I'm now quite familiar with the HTA.

 

[gboykovekin]

I'd be curious to see some statistics about these apparently very common pedestrian-cyclist collisions, injuries, and deaths... bicycles - the silent killer.

And why don't pedestrians need licenses? About 120 pedestrians are killed and 5,000 are injured each year. Most are at fault... most collisions are at intersections. I think that there should be a licensing procedure for anyone who wants to cross a city street

Those senior citizens sure are risky road-users.

 

[nfitz]

Most are at fault...

It doesn't appear that way for adults. If you ignore the brackets with children in it, then 25-64 bracket, that about 50% are not at fault, and in the 65-69, 70-74, and 75+ brackets it ranges from 52% to 62% not at fault.

How do you conclude that most of the times the pedestrian is at fault?... Seems about 50/50 for adults.

 

[waterloowarrior]

It doesn't appear that way for adults. If you ignore the brackets with children in it, then 25-64 bracket, that about 50% are not at fault, and in the 65-69, 70-74, and 75+ brackets it ranges from 52% to 62% not at fault.

How do you conclude that most of the times the pedestrian is at fault?... Seems about 50/50 for adults.

I checked and yes, the split is about 50% overall

My point is that cyclists, just like pedestrians and motorcyclists are vulnerable road users. We shouldn't be trying to make things more onerous on them, we should be trying to make the streets safer by adding more dedicated infrastructure, improving signaling, and improving driver awareness and training.

We aren't going to address pedestrian safety through licensing or jaywalking tickets, we can keep people safer by adding more pedestrian crossings and better designing intersections. We aren't going to slow down drivers by giving speeding tickets to people going 5 km/h over, we need to design roads so people drive more slowly. We can't really address cycling safety by giving tickets for riding on the sidewalk of a congested street or making them get a license... we need to give them alternatives like separated lanes so they don't feel like they need to go on the sidewalk to be safe, improve intersections, widen multi-use paths etc.

 

[TKTKTK]

blah blah blah, I'm sick of this line.

Cyclists needing driver education = cyclist being killed
Drivers needing driver education = cyclist being killed

obviously the priority of one trumps the other.

The Priority of one trumps the other? What happened to sharing the road and looking out for each other?

Since cyclists are the ones injured in most interactions, one would think they'd take their personal safety more seriously. Trying to abdicate that responsibility to drivers, solely, is probably why we see so many cyclists dangerously ignoring common sense road rules (lights/reflectors, stop signs, direction of travel, etc).

Cyclists DO need driver education if they're cycling downtown, but that isn't an insult to them - it ought to be a basic requirement for road use for vehicles of all kinds (especially if it's being used as a method of commuting, rather than just weekend pleasure rides)

Also, suggesting that cyclists need drivers education doesn't exclude the fact that some drivers also need additional training - especially driving downtown with more and more cyclists around. I know driving around cyclists was never part of my driver's training - though I'm clever enough to have figured it out for myself

More than a lack of infrastructure, I see the problem as a lack of common understanding and expectation - and unless you can keep the three groups separate 100% of the time, it's a problem you'll run into again and again.

 

[nfitz]

My point is that cyclists, just like pedestrians and motorcyclists are vulnerable road users.

Sure - I generally agree. But you earlier post implied that cyclists should be given some kind of free pass, even though they seem to (in my experience at least) violate the Highway Traffic Act more frequently than either automobile drivers or pedestrians.

 

[waterloowarrior]

Sure - I generally agree. But you earlier post implied that cyclists should be given some kind of free pass, even though they seem to (in my experience at least) violate the Highway Traffic Act more frequently than either automobile drivers or pedestrians.

How many drivers go over the speed limit and/or do rolling stops... how many pedestrians jaywalk. it's pointless to debate which 'group' disobeys the HTA more... the big difference is that when someone driving a car disobeys the rules it can get someone else killed or severely injured.. one of the reasons why someone using a bike, walking, or on a moped/motorcycle is more vulnerable. and I find that putting people into groups is also counter-productive. I do mostly driving when at home, for groceries, or for work.. I cycle/walk when at school, for quick errands, or for fun... Am I a 'cyclist' or a 'driver'? The problem is that many people generalize the cyclist in spandex that yelled at them to represent all cyclists, even if it only is a small proportion of the people who use a bike. a bicycle is a form of transportation, not an identity.