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Baby, we got a bubble!?

You are not being realistic
Our economy has fed on RE and is addicted to that.
How do you expect the debt to stop increasing, the GDP to stay at the same level and cut the addiction?

Stopping RE at this point has become impossible since there is lots of jobs in that
Continue to run the country this way will get us in debt totally.
How do you propose we reconcile these two tendencies ?
Our other industries are mostly dead, we sell resources but the demand is not stellar in that sector.
What else is left ???

So would you have any idea to save our Canadian economy other than wishing the R.E. crash ?
 
So would you have any idea to save our Canadian economy other than wishing the R.E. crash ?

So you(the economy) ate at McDonalds junk food (cheap rates) for years, you got terminal cancer (bubble) and now in your last couple of months you are looking for a solution?
I am afraid that this has no cure. Maybe some drastic amputations ...who knows.
 
Nah. To further extend a terrible analogy: Contrary to popular myth, just because somebody got fat, it doesn't mean that someone has to go on some strange fad diet to correct his weight. And it certainly doesn't mean cutting off his legs to correct his weight. Instead, you can manage the obesity in a responsible way to allow the fat to be trimmed slowly, and over time, that person may be in prime health again. The key is a balanced and reasonable approach, not overly dramatic and potentially dangerous approaches guided by histrionics.
 
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So you(the economy) ate at McDonalds junk food (cheap rates) for years, you got terminal cancer (bubble) and now in your last couple of months you are looking for a solution?
I am afraid that this has no cure. Maybe some drastic amputations ...who knows.

Having such negative thought is bad to your health.
 
Treb mid month numbers are out:

http://www.torontorealestateboard.c...market_updates/news2013/nr_mid_month_0713.htm

July 16, 2013 -- Greater Toronto Area REALTORS® reported 3,603 residential sales through the TorontoMLS system during the first 14 days of July. This result represented a moderate increase of 2.2 per cent compared to the same period in 2012. Over the same time frame, the number of new listings entered into TorontoMLS was down by two per cent.

“The second half of 2013 began with tighter market conditions in the GTA housing market. With sales up and new listings down, it makes sense that the annual rate of price growth accelerated. This was especially the case for single-detached and semi-detached homes in the City of Toronto, which remained in very short supply,†said Toronto Real Estate Board President Dianne Usher.

The average selling price for the first 14 days of July was $510,819 – up by 8.1 per cent compared to $472,632 in the first half of July 2012. The strongest year-over-year increases were experienced in the single-detached and semi-detached market segments in the City of Toronto with growth rates of 10.7 and 14.1 per cent respectively. The condominium apartment segment continued to experience moderate average price growth.

“Expect a faster pace of average price growth in the second half of 2013 compared to the first six months of the year. The strong demand and shortage of listings for low-rise home types in some neighbourhoods will continue to be the driver of price growth. An improvement in conditions in the condominium apartment market will also have a positive impact,†said Jason Mercer, TREB’s Senior Manager of Market Analysis.
 
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...fer-46-per-cent-drop-in-june/article13298507/

Toronto condo sales suffer 46-per-cent drop in June

TARA PERKINS - REAL ESTATE REPORTER


The number of new homes that sold in the Greater Toronto Area last month was the lowest of any June on record, as a steep drop in condo sales overwhelmed a rise in sales of houses and townhomes.

The price of new condos dipped by a negligible amount, while those of detached homes and townhomes continued to rise.

A total of 2,341 new homes sold in the GTA during June, down 30 per cent from 3,364 last June and down 36 per cent from the average level over the past decade, according to new data from RealNet Canada Inc. and the Building Industry and Land Development Association.

The sale of new houses, townhomes and semis rose on a year-over-year basis for the first time since the spring of 2012. There were 1,090 low-rise home sales during the month, up six per cent from a year ago, although still 34 per cent below the 10-year average.

But the number of new condos sold came in at 1,251, down 46 per cent from 2,335 a year earlier, and down from 3,008 sales in June, 2011. The figure is 38 per cent below the 10-year average.

All told, new home sales in Canada’s most populous city during the first half of the year are the second-lowest in a decade.

“Both the industry and the consumer are currently challenged by a considerable reduction of affordability and choice in the market,†BILD chief executive Bryan Tuckey stated in a press release. “This has severely reduced new home sales, particularly in the low-rise market which is experiencing record-high pricing.â€

The RealNet New Home Price Index rose six per cent from last June, to $638,655. The corresponding high-rise figure fell 0.5 per cent to $430,216.
 
I don't think there is any denying these are poor sales showing but for 1 month.

We do know of late that a large number of sales occur during condo launches. It has been widely reported a number of projects have been delayed. If this is correct, it is not surprising that we may see a low number. That said, I am in no way saying these numbers are not concerning in that if this is going to be the trend for the rest of the year, we may well see prices start to drop (besides incentives on new condo properties).

With such a gap as now exists between resale and new, and also with better deals to be had on assignments or from people who bought 3-5 years ago but now want to sell who are already making money on paper but not to the extent that the price escalation has been (e.g. bought $300K....today builder asking $375K....purchaser willing to assingn or resell from $325-$350K
will not show up as new sales from developers.

I am not being an apologist for the drop nor am I saying that it is not possible that prices are going to come down hard in condos, I am just suggesting should it not happen the above 2 reasons may be playing a factor.

I wonder if others believe there is any possible merit to the hypotheses put forward or am I totally mistaken?
 
We do know of late that a large number of sales occur during condo launches. It has been widely reported a number of projects have been delayed.

Yes, but it's a chicken/egg question: are the launches being delayed because of low sales, or are there low sales because launches are delayed?

The big question is: why would a condo developer delay a launch? It will cost them more money to wait since they've likely already invested a lot of capital into the project. One possibility is a delay in getting all the necessary paperwork to go through city hall. Another is possibly that they are having trouble getting investors due to the changing nature of the market.
 
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Yes, but it's a chicken/egg question: are the launches being delayed because of low sales, or are there low sales because launches are delayed?

The big question is: why would a condo developer delay a launch? It will cost them more money to wait since they've likely already invested a lot of capital into the project. One possibility is a delay in getting all the necessary paperwork to go through city hall. Another is possibly that they are having trouble getting investors due to the changing nature of the market.

Actually Kenny, I believe in the past few years the launch is the most important bang for the buck. It used to be that developers expected to be in sales for a year. Then with the boom for about the past 5 years, many projects were achieving 60-70% sales in 4-6 weeks. In some cases you will remember frenzies and sales hitting their targets over a weekend blitz.

This was not normal.

We have had a lot of rain last week, excessively high temperatures now....things not so conducive to have people go out looking.

As well, more importantly, if my first point was right about the importance of a launch, you don't want to launch in the lull of summer but more likely in September when people are not wondering about being with the kids, being on vacation etc.

My suspicion is that developers will make the conscientious decision to hold onto their launches until there is some better press, even if it means costing them some time.

The reason I posed the question about the very bad 1 month.....hi rise sales are very choppy. If there are 4 high profile launches in a month and then only 1 the following month, you can imagine the sales figures will be up/down.

I again emphasize I am not saying it will be better next month or August but I suspect it will improve later in the year as there have been fewer launches. Investors probably realize that at current $/sq.ft. renting does not make sense and further that price escalation is likely to be limited so flipping not an option. I think investors are evaluating and awaiting some price adjustments. I suspect a $75/sq.ft. downward adjustment might get some to kick the tires again.
 
From the Globe and Mail this morning. I won't post all 3 pages. If people wish me to, just ask and I will:

From page 1:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...ck/article13327917/?page=3#dashboard/follows/


Real estate revival: America’s property markets make a comeback Add to ...

JOANNA SLATER

MIAMI — The Globe and Mail

Published Saturday, Jul. 20 2013, 8:00 AM EDT

Last updated Saturday, Jul. 20 2013, 8:00 AM EDT



On a recent sunny Friday morning, Jorge Perez, the ruling magnate of Miami real estate, strode into the living room of his waterfront home and settled into an overstuffed chair with a view of Biscayne Bay. A small, fluffy white dog named Samson jumped into his lap.

The developer was in casual mode – jeans, a blue-and-white striped shirt, slip-on shoes – and preparing to leave for a vacation in Tuscany. In conversation, he had the expansive air of someone who has veered close to disaster and lived to tell the story. After all, it wasn’t so long ago that his company was nearly crushed in the real estate collapse.


There is no shortage of indications that Miami, after tanking during the housing collapse, is back in business. In and around Miami Beach, there is a flowering of new buildings aimed at attracting the ultra-wealthy, including one featuring “sky garages” – parking spots just outside the entrance to your high-rise unit, accessible by a car-sized elevator. But it’s not just the luxury segment that is surging. Miami also has the advantage of drawing a considerable number of international buyers – whether from Latin America, Russia or Canada. “Miami has really stepped up to be the hottest city in the world,” said Stephen Ross, chairman of Related Cos., a major New York developer.


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Mr. Perez was the biggest builder in the largest condominium bubble in the United States and the most prominent developer in Florida, a state that epitomized the frenzy of overbuilding and speculation during the boom years.

“They say the bigger they are, the harder they fall, right? That’s true. So we fell,” said Mr. Perez, 63. “You’re God’s gift to the world, you’re the golden boy – and then nobody wanted to talk to me. You go from being the hero to being the goat.”

Now the chastened mogul is facing the most improbable outcome of all: Business is roaring again as the U.S. housing market pulses back to life. Mr. Perez’s firm – Related Group – has more than forty projects in the works in the region. Next month, the company will complete its first condominium built since the crash, a sold-out tower in Miami. In the past two weeks alone, it announced two more brand-new condo projects.

Across the country, there are variations on the same story as builders get back to work, eager to capitalize on rising home values and pent-up appetite. After six long years of destruction – housing prices nationwide peaked in 2006 and hit bottom in 2012 – the U.S. housing market is mounting a comeback. In the twelve months through April, home prices in the country’s 20 largest metropolitan areas rose 12 per cent, the fastest increase in seven years, according to the widely-followed S&P/Case-Shiller Index.

How Mr. Perez managed to haul his company out of the abyss is a tale that shows the unexpected vigour of the U.S. housing recovery but also its limits. While Mr. Perez is building again, the way he’s doing it bears little resemblance to the credit-fuelled construction of the bubble years. And every day he reminds himself of the perils of too much optimism.

So Mr. Perez is moving carefully but also quickly. “Will there be a bust?” he asked, looking out at his swimming pool and the shining sea just beyond it. “Yes. The question is when. People used to say there are three important things in real estate: location, location, location. Now I say, it’s timing, timing, timing.”

Already, the real estate recovery has provided a concrete lift to Mr. Perez’s fortunes: Earlier this year, he returned to the annual list of billionaires compiled by Forbes magazine, his first appearance there since 2008.

“Most guys in his position would have gone under,” said Jack McCabe, who heads a real estate research and consulting firm in Deerfield Beach, Fla. “Now he’s back and primed and ready to go – and may end up being bigger than he was before.”

The long road back

When the housing market in South Florida collapsed, it was common to hear predictions that it would take 10 or 15 years to work through the glut of properties built prior to the crash. It didn’t turn out that way.

In Miami and elsewhere, the rebirth of the housing market has had an untraditional midwife: investors. Across the country, an array of players – private equity firms, hedge funds, wealthy individuals – have snapped up properties at rock-bottom prices, which helped put a floor under the market at a time when regular buyers remained fearful.

Miami is a turbocharged version of what happened nationwide: From their peak in 2006 to their nadir in 2011, home prices in the city fell 51 per cent, S&P/Case-Shiller figures show. Since then, they have risen 17 per cent to levels equivalent to what prevailed back in 2003.

For now, housing remains a relative bargain. Jed Kolko, an economist at Trulia Inc., an online real estate site, noted that U.S. home prices are about 7 per cent below fair value, judging by their historical relationship with personal income and rental rates.

Of course, there is no shortage of reasons to worry. Mortgage rates are rising, though over all they remain low. Land prices have spiked, suggesting a return to speculation in some parts of the housing market. The investors who have piled into real estate will not wait forever to realize a return, creating a sizable contingent of future sellers.
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A few observations: the largest developer is talking "timing" vs. "location" as being the prime factor......
One can extrapolate that there are at least in Mr. Perez's view a reason one can conclude not buy real estate at certain times.

The drop was 51% so those who feel we can't have a 25% drop here in Toronto should think again.
The corollary to this however is: Miami trebled over 6 years. This resembled Toronto from 1985 to 1989 when it almost trebled and fell about 40%. Toronto essentially doubled this whole time from 1998 onwards. To expect a comparable drop here as some have postulated or hope is probably not realistic.

The purchasers in Miami are from Latin America, Russia and Canada (not so much the locals due to difficulties with mortgages) looking to put their money in a safe place.
In Toronto we have Asia (China and India), Russia, Iranians and other parts of the Middle East and a few Europeans....but the concept is the same.
I point this out because despite a US stock market that from 2009 has risen 100% there is still a large of money going into real estate in the US....granted after a significant "bargain sale".

Finally, Mr. Perez is taking 40% down payments now which does ensure less likelihood of a mass of developer units hitting the market at once. Canada is still only taking 20%-25% from foreign investors and perhaps the percentage should go up. This would provide a further cushion and avoid the destructive rapid destruction of the real estate market and the condo market in TO and perhaps Vancouver in particular.
 
From the star:
"Shocking" number of luxury condos for sale on MLS
'Shadow inventory' of high-end penthouses, unsold units could be even higher

By: Susan Pigg Business Reporter, Published on Fri Aug 02 2013
The number of $1 million-plus condos for sale in Toronto has reached such “shocking” levels, it would take about 20 months to sell them all given current demand, more than four times what it would take to clear the current inventory of more conventional condos.
What’s even more worrisome is those numbers don’t include “shadow inventory,” which could easily exceed the number of high-end condos that were listed for sale on the Multiple Listing Service as of the end of June, says Toronto realtor Andrew la Fleur who did the math recently on behalf of an investor.
That shadow inventory includes units that have yet to sell in five-star hotel projects like the Trump International Hotel & Tower, Ritz-Carlton, Shangri-La and Four Seasons, all of which have hit the market in the last two years.
Also part of that great unknown are pricey penthouses still sitting empty in dozens of newer condo projects, especially in the downtown core: Developers don’t like to dump too many of their unsold units on the publicly accessible MLS system all at once, for fear it can make the project look bad and undercut prices.
In the first six months of this year, there were 145 condos listed on MLS for $1 million or more, says la Fleur, who was shocked by the numbers when he started delving into the high-end market recently on behalf of an investor who wanted to know if they stood to make more money buying one pricey property or two or three cheaper condos.
Only 42 of those $1-million plus units actually sold, an average of seven per month, says la Fleur. That equates, in key real estate market terms, into a 20-month supply. It was even higher, 25 months, in tony Yorkville, much to la Fleur’s surprise.
That’s more than four times the three to five-month supply of more conventional condos that were for sale in the first six months of 2013.
“It’s very crowded out there,” says la Fleur, who found prices have remained flat, or even slumped, for folks who bought into many of the five-star hotel projects before they were built.
He believes it could be at least three years, and perhaps as much as a decade, before investors in that sector really start to see gains.
While prices have indeed been flat, there hasn’t been the slump many had expected now that all those five-star offerings are up and open, says Shaun Hildebrand, senior vice president of condo research firm Urbanation.
“When you look at the numbers and relate them to the rest of the market, it would suggest that there is a glut, a drastic oversupply,” of $1 million-plus condos, says Hildebrand. “But this is a very niche segment of the market. It really needs to be looked at in isolation.”
In fact, months of supply in Yorkville has always run about twice that of the conventional condo market and it’s just going to take time for all these new units to find buyers, he added.
“This is a new market to Toronto, it’s still in its infancy.”
Wealthy buyers are still looking at Toronto, says Ross McCredie, chief executive officer of luxury realtor Sotheby’s International who sold his $2 million condo in the Four Seasons last spring to a Hong Kong buyer.
“There are a lot of people actually purchasing higher-end condos with cash as investment vehicles that they can rent out because the vacancy rate is so low in Toronto,” says McCredie. “That’s a key indicator. It shows that on a long-term basis, those condos are going to prove out.”
In fact, dozens of condos in the Ritz, Shangri-La and Four Seasons are already being rented out, either by choice or because investors couldn’t find buyers. Rents are running more than $3 to more than $5 per square foot.
That translates into a mere $6,000 a month for a 1,600 square foot unit at the Ritz.
 
July numbers are in.

TORONTO, August 2, 2013 -- Greater Toronto Area REALTORS® reported 8,544 residential sales through the TorontoMLS system in July 2013. Total sales were up by 16 per cent compared to July 2012. Over the same period, new listings added to TorontoMLS and active listings at the end of the month were up, but by a substantially smaller rate of increase compared to sales.

“Last month’s sales represented the best July result since 2009 and was the third best July result on record. Despite recent increases in average borrowing costs, home buyers are still finding affordable home ownership options in the GTA,” said Toronto Real Estate Board President Dianne Usher.

“We are a year removed from the onset of stricter mortgage lending guidelines and many households who put their decision to purchase a home on hold have reactivated their search. An increasing number of these households are getting deals done,” continued Ms. Usher.

Reflecting tighter market conditions, the average selling price for July sales was up on a year-over-year basis by eight per cent to $513,246. The low-rise market segment continued to be the driver of overall price growth. It should be noted, however, that the average condominium apartment price was also up by more than the rate of inflation on an annual basis. The MLS® Home Price Index (HPI) was also up on a year-over-year basis for all major home types.

“We are forecasting continued average price growth for the remainder of 2013 and through 2014 as well. Months of inventory for low-rise homes remains near record lows, suggesting that sellers’ market conditions will remain in place in the second half of 2013. An increase in listings in 2014 would lead to more balanced market conditions and a slower pace of price growth next year, albeit still above the rate of inflation,” said Jason Mercer, TREB’s Senior Manager of Market Analysis.

http://www.torontorealestateboard.c...ket_updates/news2013/nr_market_watch_0713.htm

Sales up y/y significantly across the board for detached, semi-detached, condos etc.

Condo prices in the 416 up 4.1% y/y $361,969 Sales up 10.6% y/y.

All home sales in the 416 up 15.8% y/y. Prices up 8% y/y $536,181
 
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