News   Jul 12, 2024
 971     0 
News   Jul 12, 2024
 843     0 
News   Jul 12, 2024
 343     0 

Baby, we got a bubble!?

You might want to check out this link.
http://www.numbeo.com/property-investment/rankings.jsp
Just to name a few.

City House Price To Income Ratio
Chennai, India 61.15
Minsk, Belarus 40.00
Hyderabad, India 34.86
Cluj-napoca, Romania 34.05
Bucharest, Romania 30.89
Budva, Montenegro 30.00
Kiev, Ukraine 27.84 4.07
Moscow, Russia 27.69
Zaragoza, Spain 24.61
Beijing, China 22.29
Vilnius, Lithuania 20.84
Shanghai, China 20.68
Belgrade, Serbia 19.89
Delhi, India 19.57
...
...
Toronto, Canada 6.03
So we're comparing Canada to Eastern Europe and China rather than Western Europe or the US where the whole mass collapsed under its own weight at ~5x ? good grief.

Also, am I safe to assume that in 2-3 years when it's built, that the PPSF will be upwards to $500/ft?
Extrapolating forward, $1000psf by 2016 and $2000 psf by 2022. Don't worry.
 
You might want to check out this link.
http://www.numbeo.com/property-investment/rankings.jsp
Just to name a few.

City House Price To Income Ratio
Chennai, India 61.15
Minsk, Belarus 40.00
Hyderabad, India 34.86
Cluj-napoca, Romania 34.05
Bucharest, Romania 30.89
Budva, Montenegro 30.00
Kiev, Ukraine 27.84 4.07
Moscow, Russia 27.69
Zaragoza, Spain 24.61
Beijing, China 22.29
Vilnius, Lithuania 20.84
Shanghai, China 20.68
Belgrade, Serbia 19.89
Delhi, India 19.57
...
...
Toronto, Canada 6.03
So the average home in Toronto is only 6x the average annual income? I don't think that's accurate. Maybe 10 years ago it was. The average home in Toronto is 450k. That means that the average salary is $75,000? That can't be true. I don't make that much and none of my friends or family do either and most of us are university educated. I think it's more like 10-12 times annual salary in Toronto.
 
So the average home in Toronto is only 6x the average annual income? I don't think that's accurate. Maybe 10 years ago it was. The average home in Toronto is 450k. That means that the average salary is $75,000? That can't be true. I don't make that much and none of my friends or family do either and most of us are university educated. I think it's more like 10-12 times annual salary in Toronto.

I think the numbers might be a bit off for Toronto. I noticed when I did the PSF for comparing countries, it's around $440 psf compared to around $1000 psf in Tokyo. Right now it's around $500-550 psf or so. Pre-con is just crazy and above market price. I also know in HK, the psf is way over $1000. It's about 3-4x our psf.

Regarding the post of comparing Toronto to the rest of the world. It was in response to someone's comment that "globally, there is no housing market anywhere that has sustained avg prices at greater than 4x avg income. This historical avg for ALL COUNTRIES is approx 3.5x earnings." By global, I assume it means worldwide and not meaning specific regions. My post to the link to indicate that the statement is untrue. Globally, housing has sustained greater than 4x avg income. Other countries have more history and have faced more up and downs than we have. And after each down, they edge up higher again. Hence the huge ratio of income vs home price.
 
Last edited:
US Housing starts soar in August by 10.5% shocking street by 10x the expectation, only one report, my point when all seems so bad we get this. Memories of sping of 2009 for me when all we calling for big drops and no one expected that spring summer rally, this thing can turn the other way quickly here in Canada to the upside, that is why I dont time markets, fence sitters usally lose the game
 
US Housing starts soar in August by 10.5% shocking street by 10x the expectation, only one report, my point when all seems so bad we get this. Memories of sping of 2009 for me when all we calling for big drops and no one expected that spring summer rally, this thing can turn the other way quickly here in Canada to the upside, that is why I dont time markets, fence sitters usally lose the game


the markets don't seem to be so enthusiastic as you are ...

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/housing-starts-jump-105-in-august-2010-09-21

U.S. housing starts jump 10.5% in August
Permits for new single-family homes rise 1.8


By Greg Robb and Jeffry Bartash, MarketWatch

WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) — New housing starts surged 10.5% in August to the highest level since spring, but the activity was driven by a surprisingly sharp spike in apartment construction, government data showed.

Housing starts rose in August to an annualized rate of 598,000, compared with a revised 0.4% increase in July, the Commerce Department reported Tuesday. Economists surveyed by MarketWatch had expected housing starts to drop to 535,000 on a seasonally adjusted basis.

While the report seemed to point to an upturn in the weak U.S. housing market, most economists downplayed the better-than-expected number. They pointed out that data for multi-family starts, which surged 32.2% in August, is notoriously volatile and represents just a small portion of the housing market.

New construction of single-family homes, which account for 75% of the housing market, rose a much smaller 4.3% to an annualized rate of 438,000. Although it was the first increase in four months, construction of single-family homes is still 9.1% lower compared to year ago.

“While the volatile multi-family sector was responsible for the overall level of starts in August being higher than expected, the more important single-family component remains severely depressed,” noted chief economist Joshua Shapiro of MFR Inc.


Starts rose in all regions except the Northeast, where they slumped 24.3%. Big increases in the West (34.3%) and the Midwest (21.7%) offset that decline.

Data on housing starts has always been hard to measure and the government report is prone to sharp revisions. Complicating the picture was a federal tax credit for new home buyers that expired earlier this year. The credit caused home sales to spike in the spring, peaking at 679,000 in April, and then plunging over the summer, falling to as low as 539,00 in June.

Economists say the effects of the credit have now largely dissipated, giving them a clearer view of the health of the housing market.

Meanwhile, permits for new construction, a more accurate gauge of home building, increased 1.8% in August to an annualized rate of 569,000.

Permits for condominiums and apartments rose 9.8%, but permits for single-family homes dipped 1.2% to an annual rate of 401,000. Single-family permits are viewed as one of the best indicators of future economic health and tend to draw the most attention of economists.

“This marks the fifth consecutive monthly drop and is indicative of deterioration in demand for new homes,” economist Michelle Meyer of Bank of America/Merrill Lynch said in an email.


The housing market plays a huge role in the U.S. It’s usually one of the first to weaken before a recession and one of the quickest to recover as growth resumes. But the sector has lagged during this recovery, held down by after-effects of the bursting of the housing bubble. See full story on the NBER determination that the U.S.’s recession ended last summer.

The housing industry also has wide-ranging influence on the rest of the economy, since so many raw materials and finished goods are required to build homes and furnish them after sale.

Because of sharp fluctuations in starts data, economists say it can take several months to detect new trends. In the past four months, housing starts have averaged an annualized 567,000, down from 587,000 in the four months ending in July.

Greg Robb is a senior reporter for MarketWatch in Washington.
Jeffry Bartash is a reporter for MarketWatch in Washington.
 
Yes that what they do now that they were so wrong, come up with reasons and rational beyond their embarrasing 10x street expectations, because of this because of that, fact is they were wrong 10x the street
 
That means that the average salary is $75,000? That can't be true. I don't make that much and none of my friends or family do either and most of us are university educated. I think it's more like 10-12 times annual salary in Toronto.

Average household income.
 
You might want to check out this link.
http://www.numbeo.com/property-investment/rankings.jsp
Just to name a few.

City House Price To Income Ratio
Chennai, India 61.15
Minsk, Belarus 40.00
Hyderabad, India 34.86
Cluj-napoca, Romania 34.05
Bucharest, Romania 30.89
Budva, Montenegro 30.00
Kiev, Ukraine 27.84 4.07
Moscow, Russia 27.69
Zaragoza, Spain 24.61
Beijing, China 22.29
Vilnius, Lithuania 20.84
Shanghai, China 20.68
Belgrade, Serbia 19.89
Delhi, India 19.57
...
...
Toronto, Canada 6.03


Those numbers are gibberish. "Numbeo"?? This is your source? If you look around the internet you can also find proof that Bigfoot exists.

I have posted the following link before, and I will now post again.
http://www.demographia.com/dhi.pdf
 
Last edited:
Yes that what they do now that they were so wrong, come up with reasons and rational beyond their embarrasing 10x street expectations, because of this because of that, fact is they were wrong 10x the street

August US starts were 598k annuallized.
That is more than 50% below the average of the past 50 yrs
There is NOTHING good happening in US housing starts.
http://www.forecast-chart.com/graph-housing-starts.html
 
Those numbers are gibberish. "Numbeo"?? This is your source? If you look around the internet you can also find proof that Bigfoot exists.

I have posted the following link before, and I will now post again.
http://www.demographia.com/dhi.pdf

The list of countries there is hardly comprehensive enough to be considered global. I would say it's selective global countries. Tr The report you linked also has some weird numbers.

Rank Nation Metropolitan Market Median Multiple
1 Canada Vancouver 9.3
16 United States New York 7.0
57 Canada Toronto 5.2

New York's price to income is lower than Vancouver? New York's RE is way more expensive than Vancouver I think. The ratio for most of the cities listed are way past 3-4.5x mark too. And if you look at the numbers, Vancouver is almost double Toronto.
 
The list of countries there is hardly comprehensive enough to be considered global. I would say it's selective global countries. Tr The report you linked also has some weird numbers.

Rank Nation Metropolitan Market Median Multiple
1 Canada Vancouver 9.3
16 United States New York 7.0
57 Canada Toronto 5.2

New York's price to income is lower than Vancouver? New York's RE is way more expensive than Vancouver I think. The ratio for most of the cities listed are way past 3-4.5x mark too. And if you look at the numbers, Vancouver is almost double Toronto.

The metric is PRICE to INCOME ratio.
New York's RE is more expensive than Vancouver, and its incomes are also higher.

For Vancouver, prices are higher and incomes are lower. Yes, the ratio is almost double Toronto.

And as for the ratios being high compared to historical averages of 3.5, yes, you are absolutely correct. Which is why the ratios are moving down.
 
The metric is PRICE to INCOME ratio.
New York's RE is more expensive than Vancouver, and its incomes are also higher.

For Vancouver, prices are higher and incomes are lower. Yes, the ratio is almost double Toronto.

And as for the ratios being high compared to historical averages of 3.5, yes, you are absolutely correct. Which is why the ratios are moving down.

If Toronto were to drop by to 3.5 (which is doubtful), Vancouver would have to drop 60% of RE to get to 3.5 (which is also doubtful). The charts didn't rate the higher ratios from other countries either. Beijing in 2006 supposedly at 9:1? Some report Beijing is at 27:1 now. 5x the international average. HK hit 11:1 before their bubble burst.

Anyhow Global Bank seems to consider 5:1 as affordable. While the UN thinks it should be 3:1. I think the Global Bank might be more on track than what the UN wishes the numbers to be. If people want affordable, they would have to move to smaller cities. Or earn money from higher paying cities, and save to live or send money back home to cheaper cities. I can't see all the high ratio RE markets ever reaching 3.5-4x again, especially when they're above 11 and expecting them to free fall to 4.
http://english.people.com.cn/200612/22/eng20061222_335044.html

Rather than comparing at other countries figures which are even more skewed then we are, we should probably just look locally at Canada's history and on average what is globally affordable. Looking from the ratio and historical prices, we will undoubtedly face a correction, but a US style meltdown is unlikely since we never bubbled as high as they did and if the Bank of Canada doesn't put a full break on RE. The bigger the bubble, the bigger the burst. I do wonder about Vancouver though...
 

Back
Top