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Baby, we got a bubble!?

I do think it is changing. Always anecdoctal, but the young families I speak to WANT to stay downtown and raise their kids, but they find it difficult to find a place large enough when child #2 arrives.

I do think that the newer condo areas are more suited to families than, say, Yonge & Dundas. As someone else mentioned, there is an active parents' group in Liberty Village and also one in City Place.

But people have raised children in cities for centuries (Rome, anyone? Or let's talk London and New York), so my eye-rolling was more at the idea of this being a novel concept. Perhaps it's just that it's novel for middle and upper class folks because in the last century or so, the idea of the suburban home and white picket fence has become the North American "dream"
 
I do think it is changing. Always anecdoctal, but the young families I speak to WANT to stay downtown and raise their kids, but they find it difficult to find a place large enough when child #2 arrives.

I do think that the newer condo areas are more suited to families than, say, Yonge & Dundas. As someone else mentioned, there is an active parents' group in Liberty Village and also one in City Place.

But people have raised children in cities for centuries (Rome, anyone? Or let's talk London and New York), so my eye-rolling was more at the idea of this being a novel concept. Perhaps it's just that it's novel for middle and upper class folks because in the last century or so, the idea of the suburban home and white picket fence has become the North American "dream"

P.S. One thing that really, really irritates me about the parks around Liberty Village is that there is dog crap EVERYWHERE. WTF is wrong with these people?!? It almost seems like nobody cleans up after their dogs. It's horrible.

It's way, way worse than I've ever seen in neighbourhoods with lots of semis and detached in Toronto with a lot of kids.
 
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Completely agree re the dogs! I'm a lifelong dog owner and lover, and I just don't get it
 
I do think it is changing. Always anecdoctal, but the young families I speak to WANT to stay downtown and raise their kids, but they find it difficult to find a place large enough when child #2 arrives.

I do think that the newer condo areas are more suited to families than, say, Yonge & Dundas. As someone else mentioned, there is an active parents' group in Liberty Village and also one in City Place.

But people have raised children in cities for centuries (Rome, anyone? Or let's talk London and New York), so my eye-rolling was more at the idea of this being a novel concept. Perhaps it's just that it's novel for middle and upper class folks because in the last century or so, the idea of the suburban home and white picket fence has become the North American "dream"


In fairness to Migos, he did preface his statement by saying he was not knowledgeable and asked a legitimate question.
I grew up in Montreal in the city....not downtown but 20 minutes away. Streets were busy but the kids on the street would go out and play ball hockey and other games and have to stop when a car came down the street. Montreal never had the sprawl however (it is an island after all) so growing up in the city was common place.
Toronto is somewhat different. The center part of the city...downtown...is a lot more busy, congested and I would worry about being say in the Entertainment district with a young child and certainly would not let him play on the street and would be concerned even if he was on the sidewalk with other kids.....not because of abductions but because of too much traffic.

That said, I would be a bit more comfortable with Liberty Village as mentioned but it is too crowded on the roads...but much better than the core.

One comment about another post that millenials are different than the Baby boomers. When I was a "millenial" I too moved to the suburbs when my wife and I were 30 (the bigger house and anticipation of a family). All the lights would go out at 10 p.m. and we were running around the house until midnight or 1 a.m. (no kids yet). We thought what have we done and are we crazy. 10 years later with the kids and going to work....suddenly we were more like them...going to bed earlier and more tired. My point is that I am not so sure the now millenials will not follow in our foot paths.

I think the simple reality is that SFH in the city will not be an option and so larger older condos well maintained will become the option. In NY and Paris and London as pointed out.... people do live in apartments. I would hasten to point out though that having European parents they grew up with this and so they would expect it. The Millenials here in many cases are used to a home and may well have that desire after the downtown lifestyle in their early age but may move back later on as PinkLucy and I believe Montrealgirl and Ka1 and others have suggested they have done.
 
Yeah, no one has ever successfully raised a child downtown. :rolleyes:

There are kids in the condo I live in and all around. They go to school, some in walking distance, some take the bus, some ride. They play in parks with other kids. There aren't usually drunks and vagrants in our parks, unless there's an event going on and people from the burbs come and get wasted and hang out.

Where is the condo you live in?

Disagree with you on the parks, at least in most downtown parks I know. Certainly not a place for kids to play and I've never seen it to be honest.

I'm not saying it's not possible to raise a child downtown. I'm just saying I don't see it hence I think you guys may be overstating how common it is. If there are so many kids downtown, where are the schools?
 
Slightly off-topic but still on-topic alert.

Alas, one of the greatest things I love about Toronto is that the most amazing family-friendly neighborhoods are actually located very close to the city core. How many cities in the world can boast having a pocket like Rosedale right in the heart of the city? Unlike many U.S. cities, the white picket fence 'suburban American dream' can be achieved right in Toronto...if (and a big if) you can be in a financial situation to do so.

The Annex, Casa Loma, Yonge/St.Clair are all very close to the city core and very accessible to downtown. A bit further up you get Forest Hill and Lawrence Park. Talk about the epitomy of the 'American dream.' It's all here, right in the city. The core downtown lifestyle will never comprise of white picket fences, nor should it be. But we absolutely need more 2-bedroom condos and more townhouses. The downtown lifestyle is one that is active and social. It's about being right in the thick of the action, of the hustle and bustle. I hope developers continue to create spaces that the future generation demands and that families will embrace downtown/urban living as an equal and viable option to the white picket fences. Apples and oranges. Both can be delicious.
 
Where is the condo you live in?

Disagree with you on the parks, at least in most downtown parks I know. Certainly not a place for kids to play and I've never seen it to be honest.

I'm not saying it's not possible to raise a child downtown. I'm just saying I don't see it hence I think you guys may be overstating how common it is. If there are so many kids downtown, where are the schools?

Waterfront area

It depends how you define downtown for sure, but the boundaries are widening. I'm including places like Liberty Village and City Place as part of downtown. There's a school at the waterfront (and has been for years) and one on Niagara St. just north of King. One is being built at City Place. When I take the College street car, there are a ton of school kids on it. There's a school near St. Lawrence Market. I don't have school-aged children so I don't know where they all are, but a simple Google search shows a lot of red dots.
https://www.google.com/maps/search/...nto/@43.6547581,-79.3791674,14z/data=!3m1!4b1

As for parks, Victoria Memorial Square is not a home for drunks and vagrants, nor is Coronation Park or the Music Garden, all of which I am in frequently. I've seen lots of kids playing at Queen's Park where in my opinion the biggest problem is the squirrel population. I also have no problems in the parks in the St. Lawrence Market or Distillery areas.

Downtown Toronto is wide and varied and an interesting place to explore -- you might want to expand your horizons a bit :) It does go beyond Yonge & Dundas.

And I totally agree with James' post above.
 
I think you will see more and more people moving in this direction. The burbs were a great model for stable jobs, stable families, and the boomer-era drive to get as much as you can and go as big as you can.

Lifestyles and cultural attitudes are changing. Jobs, careers, and even families are much more transient than they were just a decade ago. The goals of the younger generations are different; they are more interested in being efficient with their time and space (less conspicuous consumption and excess) and close to the areas they work and play. Same with many boomers on the later end who are fatigued with all the maintenance headaches and costs of their large suburban homes and now just want to travel and be more social. Freedom and mobility will be more in demand than big lawns, massive resource-wasting properties, and endless commutes just to get "somewhere".

I agree with others that larger, more established condo units will be the new SFH, and this current stock of low-quality greed-driven shoe-boxes will turn out to be anchors around "investor" necks.


being transient shouldn't make a difference whether one lives/owns a condo or house; one will still have to sell if they need/want to move. renting, however, is a different story and gives one more freedom if things change as you're not constricted by market timing with a non-liquid asset and high transaction costs.

the only reason people are buying 500-600 sq ft boxes instead of say 700-800 sq ft is cost. wages have not kept up with price inflation due to extra-ordinary low interest rates and QE globally.
all things being equal (both efficiently laid out, same exposure, floor, features, etc), if you had 2 units in the same project and price, I'm sure they would take the larger unit.

yes, younger people want to be closer to the areas they work and play, and none of the actual maintenance (work) with SFH.
costs will have to be paid either way; monthly fees with condos or general maintenance with SFH. they are probably cheaper with SFH in the long run because you're not paying for common elements nor wages for security and property management, etc. which are large part of the fees.

I agree that larger well laid out condo units will be the new SFH.
a family of 3 people can comfortably live in as little as 850 sq ft 2 bedrooms/2 baths; or 4 in 1200 sq ft 3 bedrooms/2 baths.
I find a lot of the post mid-2000s condos have horrible floorplans, even in larger units, because of the desire by developers to squeeze more units in each floor and non-optimal floorplates. (I think it's ~ 80 x 80, so ~ 90 X 90 includes balcony depth)

this current stock of low-quality greed-driven shoe-boxes will turn out to be anchors around "investor" necks.
yes, at least for the next 15 years until the next boom occurs and/or those shoe boxes can be combined (and I question that as many of the newer buildings weren't constructed for that in mind) to form larger units like in other metropolitan cities (ie. NYC, London, Paris, etc).



P.S. One thing that really, really irritates me about the parks around Liberty Village is that there is dog crap EVERYWHERE. WTF is wrong with these people?!? It almost seems like nobody cleans up after their dogs. It's horrible.

It's way, way worse than I've ever seen in neighbourhoods with lots of semis and detached in Toronto with a lot of kids.


I'm probably going to be flamed for saying this, but look at the demographics of the area.
not all, but a lot of under 30 year olds simply lack manners and have sense of entitlement. mommy and daddy did everything for them, and they were always praised so they could never do anything wrong. :rolleyes:
 
I'm raising my two kids in a 2bed/2bath purpose-built rental in downtown. It's from the early 80s and large. We love it, but we are looking to move (to rent; no way we can afford to buy anything anywhere with two kids in daycare! We could buy at 2009/2010 prices or so (trying to bring back to thread topic)) to Annex/South Annex/Kensington/Seaton Village areas because our daycare is over there and there are more playgrounds over there than along Yonge, Bay, and Church. The playgrounds here are very busy on the weekends once the weather improves.

I'd much prefer an apartment building to a house, but there are fewer options in those neighbourhoods.

TDSB schools maps: http://www.tdsb.on.ca/Findyour/School/PDFMap.aspx

This is also a decent map: http://www.getwhatyouwant.ca/interactive-maps-toronto-schools

The children under 3 population in downtown doubled from around 2500 in 2008 to over 5000 in 2011. There are more kids downtown than you'd think, and it's growing.

edit to add: This is a good blog post about what makes child-friendly cities. Toronto does okay to pretty well, I think.
 
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I don't have school-aged children so I don't know where they all are, but a simple Google search shows a lot of red dots.
https://www.google.com/maps/search/...nto/@43.6547581,-79.3791674,14z/data=!3m1!4b1
Most of those red dots aren't schools for kids.

As for parks, Victoria Memorial Square is not a home for drunks and vagrants, nor is Coronation Park or the Music Garden, all of which I am in frequently. I've seen lots of kids playing at Queen's Park where in my opinion the biggest problem is the squirrel population. I also have no problems in the parks in the St. Lawrence Market or Distillery areas.

Downtown Toronto is wide and varied and an interesting place to explore -- you might want to expand your horizons a bit :) It does go beyond Yonge & Dundas.

And I totally agree with James' post above.

I used to live across the street from Victoria Memorial Park. When I lived there, kids were a rarity in that park. It's more now, but it's still not exactly a lot of them. There is a school north from there, but schools are very sparse in that area, and to get them you have to cross major, extremely busy streets.
 
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Most of those red dots aren't schools for kids.



I used to live across the street from Victoria Memorial Park. When I lived there, kids were a rarity in that park. It's more now, but it's still not exactly a lot of them. There is a school northwest from there, but schools are very sparse in that area, and to get them you have to cross major, extremely busy streets.

The TDSB map shows schools in that board -- yes, there are fewer schools in the newer residential areas unfortunately. http://www.tdsb.on.ca/Portals/0/Find Your School/School/PDF Maps/Files/TDSB_city.pdf

And of course there are other boards too, not just TDSB.

I think you're referring to Niagara St. school; it's where a lot of the kids in my building go, even though Waterfront School is closer -- it's all got to do with boundaries.

The point is, there are schools downtown!

Victoria Memorial isn't a great example of a park that's full of kids -- I mentioned that one more as a park that isn't full of drunks and vagrants :) Play structures were put in there quite recently which is encouraging more families to use it.
 
The TDSB map shows schools in that board -- yes, there are fewer schools in the newer residential areas unfortunately. http://www.tdsb.on.ca/Portals/0/Find Your School/School/PDF Maps/Files/TDSB_city.pdf

And of course there are other boards too, not just TDSB.

I think you're referring to Niagara St. school; it's where a lot of the kids in my building go, even though Waterfront School is closer -- it's all got to do with boundaries.

The point is, there are schools downtown!

Victoria Memorial isn't a great example of a park that's full of kids -- I mentioned that one more as a park that isn't full of drunks and vagrants :) Play structures were put in there quite recently which is encouraging more families to use it.

I just checked out the schools' ranking around Victoria Memorial Park.

Niagara Street Public School is rated 2580/3030 (or FI 4.2/10), and Ryerson Community Public School is rated 2329/3030 (or FI 4.8/10). Both are well below average. Ryerson Community Public School has an average parental income of $25000, but it performs worse than even the low income would suggest.

The Waterfront School does way better (with twice the parental income), but for Niagara St. residents, they can't go there.
 
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Really interesting back and forth on this thread. Alot of input from different perspectives going from condo salesguys ie.condo George to buyers looking to purchase and others with their input. Have y'all read simply charles's blog? Me thinks he is associated w/ simply condos. He has alot of interesting things to say about the industry and present state of affairs regarding condos in Toronto today.
 

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