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Baby, we got a bubble!?

Some sellers are like me Eug. We have a price. That is what we want and so long as we get it, we sell. If not, we don't.

If you get more, great.

Finally, it depends on the market. Sellers think differently in a market were multiple bids and sales within days/weeks occur vs. the historical average of 3 months to sell an average priced home (that may even be 6 months). It is only the hot market that has made people forget what a "normal" market is like.
 
Yeah but it's a hot market, it makes sense to tell uber-low-ball bidders to take a hike in a multiple offer situation. Any uber low-ball bidder who complains they can't adjust the offer after that is just whining. However, more often than not, they weren't serious about the offer in the first place anyway.
 
^^^
Agree.
Some people go around and put in low balls as you never know the person's situation.
Most times, at least for me, that just gets on my nerves and makes me angry. Then I have to remind myself to not cut off my nose to spite my face and think rationally.
 
Both Eug and Interested seem to agree, albeit in a round about way, they will entertain counteroffers, even after a low ball, correct?

I understand there is psychology involved. But sellers and buyers alike should try their best to take emotion out of the equation. I don't care if somebody lowballs me, as long as they raise the offer afterwards. I won't be as foolish as to ignore that bidder just because of a low starting point. I rather have $550,000 from a person who tried low balling me at $500,000, then brought their offer up, than someone who started out at $535,000 and eventually only get to $545,000. Thus, I don't see anybody thus far disproving my claim that repeat bids should be accepted, and agents should suck it up and take a little bit of time to entertain everybody's bids. You can keep saying no to low prices, but you should never close off lines of communication. That agent in the article claiming they get mad at people joining the bidding late should just take it. Bidding is fair game, no matter how late stage. I don't see why a seller will exclude anybody, until they have signed on the dotted line. Conversely, I don't see why bidders shouldn't try their luck and bid below asking, instead of those insane 5% or 10% asking right off the bat. A rational seller should always let you bid again. I think that is especially true in a market that is slowly downturning.
 
Ka1 left the site a while ago. I believe he still reads it. Maybe he will post again?

It would be interesting to hear if he still shares the positive view he espoused previously.
 
Both Eug and Interested seem to agree, albeit in a round about way, they will entertain counteroffers, even after a low ball, correct?

I understand there is psychology involved. But sellers and buyers alike should try their best to take emotion out of the equation. I don't care if somebody lowballs me, as long as they raise the offer afterwards. I won't be as foolish as to ignore that bidder just because of a low starting point. I rather have $550,000 from a person who tried low balling me at $500,000, then brought their offer up, than someone who started out at $535,000 and eventually only get to $545,000. Thus, I don't see anybody thus far disproving my claim that repeat bids should be accepted, and agents should suck it up and take a little bit of time to entertain everybody's bids. You can keep saying no to low prices, but you should never close off lines of communication. That agent in the article claiming they get mad at people joining the bidding late should just take it. Bidding is fair game, no matter how late stage. I don't see why a seller will exclude anybody, until they have signed on the dotted line. Conversely, I don't see why bidders shouldn't try their luck and bid below asking, instead of those insane 5% or 10% asking right off the bat. A rational seller should always let you bid again. I think that is especially true in a market that is slowly downturning.

Yes I would entertain a low ball but if too low I see no sense in responding or I answer back at my asking price and indicate that I would like a serious offer.

I appreciate you say you would try and keep emotions out of it. Maybe it is me but if you are a well capitalized seller and not in need to sell, lowballs tend to aggravate. They waste everyone's time unless the person is just trying and prepared to make a reasonable offer.
 
I can comment on this personally.

I had a property a few years ago which we put on the market when the market was soft (early 2009). We priced it at the lowest price (within $10K) that I would accept. I received 4 offers; 1 about $110K below ask, one $55K below ask, one $40K below ask with minimal conditions, and one $10K below ask. I told the agent to ask everyone for their best offer and that I would make a decision. It turned out the one $40K below ask came to $10K below ask subject to financing and house inspection, the 10 below ask offered full...NO CONDITIONS. I would have taken the $10K less if their offer would have been clean and the $10K not, by the way. If they would have had no conditions but given that the house was 35 years old I did not know what might potentially be unwittingly discovered on an inspection. Let me say I knew of no major problems. A couple of minor issues (less than $1K) was all that I knew.

So, the lowballer at $110K was just that. The $50K below was unwilling to rebid. I was happy to get the offer I did....incidentally just as the market was turning in 2009. Had I waited, I would have had much more but you can't always get every decision right. I still think that I may yet see close to the 2009 price I sold that for revisited but I guess time will tell.

Since the 2 rebid I told them both that I would decide within 2 hours of receipt of both their bids and would accept one or the other. Again a different market but I as the seller wanted the deal done. I am sorry for the couple who did not get the house however they were foolish since they knew we were getting the additional bid and rather than up it, decided to go to the bidding war....I guess thinking that we were making up "phantom buyers"....I don't know. I did hear they had not bought 6 months later and prices were up about 6% by then beyond what I received....

Interesting story. Personally, i would like to see a transparent incremental bidding, the way they do it on Ebay.
 
I can comment on this personally.

I had a property a few years ago which we put on the market when the market was soft (early 2009). We priced it at the lowest price (within $10K) that I would accept. I received 4 offers; 1 about $110K below ask, one $55K below ask, one $40K below ask with minimal conditions, and one $10K below ask. I told the agent to ask everyone for their best offer and that I would make a decision. It turned out the one $40K below ask came to $10K below ask subject to financing and house inspection, the 10 below ask offered full...NO CONDITIONS. I would have taken the $10K less if their offer would have been clean and the $10K not, by the way. If they would have had no conditions but given that the house was 35 years old I did not know what might potentially be unwittingly discovered on an inspection. Let me say I knew of no major problems. A couple of minor issues (less than $1K) was all that I knew.

So, the lowballer at $110K was just that. The $50K below was unwilling to rebid. I was happy to get the offer I did....incidentally just as the market was turning in 2009. Had I waited, I would have had much more but you can't always get every decision right. I still think that I may yet see close to the 2009 price I sold that for revisited but I guess time will tell.

Since the 2 rebid I told them both that I would decide within 2 hours of receipt of both their bids and would accept one or the other. Again a different market but I as the seller wanted the deal done. I am sorry for the couple who did not get the house however they were foolish since they knew we were getting the additional bid and rather than up it, decided to go to the bidding war....I guess thinking that we were making up "phantom buyers"....I don't know. I did hear they had not bought 6 months later and prices were up about 6% by then beyond what I received....

Interesting story. Personally, i would like to see a transparent incremental bidding, the way they do it on Ebay.
 
Cautious buyers send Toronto condo sales plunging



Condo sales in Toronto’s downtown core took a large dip in June, a sign that efforts by government, regulators and the central bank to cool the market are causing buyers to be more cautious.

The condominium market in Canada’s most populous city has been singled out by policy makers in Ottawa as one of the most worrisome spots in the country’s economic landscape, with Finance Minister Jim Flaherty fearing that young buyers might overpay just before the boom ends.

The latest figures, released Thursday by the Toronto Real Estate Board, suggest that downtown condo sales fell 18 per cent in June from a year ago, to 1,415. By comparison, they rose 5 per cent in May to 1,632. While there had been a decline in March of 2 per cent, that pales next to June’s decrease.

A decline in sales and the appreciation of prices – which rose 4 per cent in May – is welcome news to policy makers and the central bank, which has also warned about the effects an ultra-low interest rate has had on the behaviour of both lenders and buyers.

But these figures don’t entirely capture all of the new condo construction under way, “and that’s where a lot of the concern lies,†said Craig Alexander, chief economist at the Toronto-Dominion Bank.

Prices held up despite the softer sales, rising 2 per cent from a year ago to $364,597 on average.

The figures represent sales that occurred through the MLS system, and predominantly capture sales of existing condos, as opposed to units still under construction. Sales of preconstruction units are down sharply, compared to last year’s record levels.

More units are being built in Toronto than any other city in North America. The fear is that when they come on the market the demand will not be there, and that will result in a significant drop in prices.

“I think over the long term, condo development needs to happen and the condo market in the GTA will do well, but after the strong run that we’ve had and with the supply challenges that are coming, I do think we could see a close to 15-per-cent decline in prices over the next two to three years,†said Mr. Alexander.

RealNet Canada Inc. will release June preconstruction sales figures next week, but sales in the first five months of this year are 22 per cent below last year’s levels in that market, and May’s figure was 37 per cent lower than a year earlier.

While the decline is significant, a large number of investors and Torontonians have still been scooping up yet-to-be-built units.

RealNet president George Carras notes that sales so far this year are still the second highest level on record, topped only by 2011.

Brokers and agents said Thursday that they’ve noticed much more of a decline in demand for preconstruction units than for average resales.

“I see investors cooling off at the higher price per square foot and some of the preconstruction stuff,†said Jeff Johnston, a Toronto area agent with Re/Max Condos Plus.

He added that the new mortgage insurance rules that the federal government announced late last month will have an impact on preconstruction sales, because the rules will likely apply to buyers who bought a unit in a building that won’t be built before next year, and who need mortgage insurance.

(Buildings often take four to five years to finish. If the buyer did not apply for mortgage insurance by June 21, and doesn’t sign final mortgage documents by the end of the year, the new rules apply. Mortgages for preconstruction units aren’t typically finalized until the building is done.)

“Builders are starting to feel it,†said Oliver Baumeister von Bretten, a broker with Re/Max 2000 Realty Inc.

“They’re offering incentives to the clients, as well as larger incentives to the realtors to bring clients to the front door.â€

This week, one of his clients who had bought a preconstruction condo last fall as an investment, and has already put 20 per cent down, said he wants to sell his contract to somebody else.

The investor lived through the real estate crash of 1989 and 1990 and has become concerned.

When Finance Minister Jim Flaherty announced the new mortgage insurance rules last month, he signalled that he’s still concerned.

“We’re seeing an acceleration of prices in Toronto,†Mr. Flaherty said at the time.

“We have not seen a significant moderation of the market in Toronto, and it’s important.â€

Sales of all types of homes fell in the Greater Toronto Area in June for the first time this year.

Sales were down 5.4 per cent from a year earlier, with downtown sales dropping while those in the surrounding areas held steady – a phenomenon that the real estate board attributes to the City of Toronto’s land transfer tax.
 
Sales were down 5.4 per cent from a year earlier, with downtown sales dropping while those in the surrounding areas held steady – a phenomenon that the real estate board attributes to the City of Toronto’s land transfer tax.

Really? The LTT which hasn't changed since 2008 caused a decrease in sales between 2011 and 2012?

It's no surprise people have a low opinion of real-estate agents. Look at what their representatives say in the media.


Perhaps sales are slower downtown because they are the highest priced and most likely to be at the margin of what people can afford? I know prices in the building I current live in are well above what I would pay for a condo unit.
 
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I'm not suggesting that the real estate board's assertion is legit, but is it possible that the land transfer tax is discouraging moving up the "property ladder" since it increases the transaction costs significantly beyond the first purchase?
 
Yes I would entertain a low ball but if too low I see no sense in responding or I answer back at my asking price and indicate that I would like a serious offer.

I appreciate you say you would try and keep emotions out of it. Maybe it is me but if you are a well capitalized seller and not in need to sell, lowballs tend to aggravate. They waste everyone's time unless the person is just trying and prepared to make a reasonable offer.

I ran into such a case in my last sale. The buyer low balled me, I wrote back saying I won't entertain such a low offer, because my property is worth more than that. I did not give a counteroffer, I just said no because of XYZ. He raised the price significantly. We got the deal done. Aggravating for me, yes, but at the end, it paid off. I'm not saying its always like this, but there is always a chance that particular buyer is just finishing for a good price. You can't fault someone for trying it. I would do the same. Why offer full price when you can get it for less, if the seller is willing to play.

I think agents are saying to try to "shock" the seller with a high price right off the bat or you won't get to buy anything. But when you do this, how do you know you paid the best possible price? You really don't. I for one rather give -5% off the asking, and see where the chips fall. As the housing market continues to downturn, I will even risk bidding an even lower price. Doesn't mean I'm not serious. But I don't like overpaying. If the seller feels insulted, they really need a better agent to calm them down and to do the negotiating for them. Agents should know there is usually room to negotiating. Afterall, its called an "opening offer" for a reason. A lot of cases, there is room to go up. If not, you only really used up 15-30 min of the sellers time (agent will spend more, but that's the nature of their job).

With all the indicators saying the market is slowing, agents, sellers, and buyers have to adjust. You shouldn't expect it to be all bidding wars, with bids 95% of listing called "insulting". I remember years ago where ads from agents proudly proclaiming they got 95% of listing price.
 

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