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Baby, we got a bubble!?

The new Teranet numbers are out, but strangely enough they jumped from February directly to April.

http://housepriceindex.ca/

Here are the numbers from April 2011 to April 2012:

2011-04 - 127.700
2011-05 - 129.800
2011-06 - 132.440
2011-07 - 134.860
2011-08 - 137.010
2011-09 - 137.740
2011-10 - 138.810
2011-11 - 138.550
2011-12 - 138.150
2012-01 - 138.910
2012-02 - 138.980
2012-03 - 139.510
2012-04 - 140.660

%change y/y - 10.15%
%change m/m - 0.82%
%change YTD - 1.82%
 
Our bubble garners some international cred

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Americas/2012/0529/Is-Canada-about-to-face-US-style-housing-meltdown

Fairly even-handed piece and I agree with most of the points. However, even with better lending practices, if you have a 95% CMHC-insured loan on a half-mill house, that's still a $475k loan. If your house/condo goes down 25% in price to $375,000, you're $100k underwater. Do you really want to pay that off, knowing it's 'dead money' to you (although you get to keep your credit score)? What if you have a kid, and instead of paying that mortgage and having the kid sleeping with you, you're willing to suck up the credit hit to get a 2nd bedroom in a rental?

I think that there will be a little more pain than we're willing to admit, if prices go down rather than just sideways until inflation/real incomes rise enough to bring house valuation back to normal.
 
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However, even with better lending practices, if you have a 95% CMHC-insured loan on a half-mill house, that's still a $475k loan. If your house/condo goes down 25% in price to $375,000, you're $100k underwater. Do you really want to pay that off, ...

Could you explain the alternative to me? Walking away (and foreclosure) in Canada isn't quite as easy as the US.

Even personal bankruptcy probably won't let you out of the now non-secured debt, since you gave away title to the property, if you still have income.


Actually, in the case you laid out you would be better off bribing the bank to foreclose on your property (rather than power of sale which is much much much more common) because then you are free and clear the debt.
 
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Could you explain the alternative to me? Walking away (and foreclosure) in Canada isn't quite as easy as the US.

Even bankruptcy probably won't work if you still have income. You're more likely to be given a debt consolidation loan with a fairly low rate along with your fried credit rating.

In the midst of the '80s Calgary NEP meltdown, my father and other small landlords/real estate investors who had done VTB mortgages got plenty of 'jingle mail' along with the banks. If you've lost your job and are heading back to Nova Scotia/Shanghai or heading out to Ft. McMurray/London, your credit rating is the least of your worries.

And disguising income, if necessary, is a surprisingly easy task.

However, I don't think we'll see American levels of put-backs, I just think the quotes in that article were a little sanguine.
 
I think the reality is while there may be some "strategic" defaults as is commonplace in certain of the US states, in Canada unless we get at least a 15% drop, people will continue to pay their mortgages even if they are 5 or 10% underwater.
If they get to 15-20% perhaps that changes. I am obviously assuming they are still working and can meet the payments.

The reason for strategic defaulting or defaulting in general would be that you would believe prices have fallen so far that they are unlikely to recoup. In many instances in the US you were talking about prices that were 1/2 of the mortgage with no realistic hope of recovering to the previous levels.

I agree with RRR that the comments were a little sanguine. However, a wrecked credit rating is not something most people strive for and do it only when absolutely forced in most cases anyhow.
 
Yeah, people will default if push comes to shove, but it's also true that it's a lot harder to do it in Canada in the US, since the consequences aren't the same.

Still, it does happen, esp. with younger people with new 1st time mortgages, or speculators.

Mortgage arrears rate highest in Alberta

The mortgage arrears rate in Alberta is by far the highest in the country, according to the CIBC Household Credit Analysis report released Wednesday.

In January, the rate in Canada was 0.4 per cent while in Alberta it was 0.7 per cent.

“This reflects the fact that, on average, homeowners in Alberta are younger and less established,” said the report authored by Benjamin Tal, deputy chief economist at CIBC World Markets. “As well, the pre-recession period in Alberta had seen activity surging rapidly — leading to a higher percentage of consumers overextending themselves to speculative investment activity and excess.”


Also:

“The recent modest softening in mortgage activity is coinciding with a reduction in the mortgage arrears rate, which as of January 2012, stood at under 0.4 per cent after reaching close to 0.5 per cent during the recession,” said the CIBC of the national picture. “Note that the current rate is still double the rate seen before the recession but is significantly below rates we have seen in previous recessions.”

The CIBC said there is no debate about the fact that the housing market is “overshooting.”

“The only question is what will be the nature of the adjustment. It appears that we are at a turning point in the real estate market. Recent signals from the market suggest that activity is slowing down,” said the CIBC.

“We continue to call for a gradual softening in the market, with prices potentially falling by around 10 per cent in the coming year or two. Other factors that will work to soften activity in the market are ongoing changes in the mortgage market with increased scrutiny from regulators regarding risk management practices, as well as the increased use of full-scale appraisals as part of the adjudication process.”
 
related to this discussion --

some recent U.S. statistics on homeowners likelihood of continuing to pay when underwater, by degree of being underwater.

http://bucks.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/24/most-underwater-homeowners-still-paying-mortgages/

also of interest with regards to housing finance, and what laws in Texas kept many from forecloseing. Basically, it's not being able to take out a home equity line of credit unless there is 20% equity.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/26/b...wners-from-housing-bust.html?_r=1&ref=housing
 
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Americas/2012/0529/Is-Canada-about-to-face-US-style-housing-meltdown
...
Do you really want to pay that off, knowing it's 'dead money' to you (although you get to keep your credit score)? What if you have a kid, and instead of paying that mortgage and having the kid sleeping with you, you're willing to suck up the credit hit to get a 2nd bedroom in a rental?

I think that there will be a little more pain than we're willing to admit, if prices go down rather than just sideways until inflation/real incomes rise enough to bring house valuation back to normal.

I agree and think that besides the economic hardships, many underestimate the potential mental health/stress/distress consequences of being underwater, which I imagine brings feelings of shame about making what has turned out to be a bad investment, loss pride of ownership now that the feeling of appreciation has dimmed, and feeling of being somewhat trapped in a new environment of much lower offers and high costs of selling. The societal fallout of this would be significant, and would likely bring us back into a deep recession. I hope it doesn't come to pass, because we will all suffer, but I dont' think that high housing prices should be a desired societal good as it is so often cheered. We need policy that encourages sustained investments in productive assets (small businesses, business investment, etc).

Personally, I've tried to hedge myself, being an owner of a cash-flowing rental property that i will keep for now but I also want to buy a single family home in the next 2-4 years. I have no idea how long the market will stay out of sync with fundamentals.

For those who followed the discussion about my situation a few pages back, I have an update. I am pleased to say that we found an abundance of nice places to rent for our small family (2 adults, child, and cats) -- lots of homes can be rented for 2500-3000 per month in places like Leslieville, Danforth, and the west end. Although we found many of the new 2bedroom condo rentals too small at 800-900 sq ft, there were a few older buildings with 1000+ units and a number of renovated houses. We settled on a generous sized apartment in a converted mansion on Palmerston in the Annex. It's an old house, but updated and high ceilings and large windows, and has the kind of workmanship and built-ins you cant find in the newer construction. We got a 12mo lease and a right to renewal, stability that is important to us because we are being displaced from our current rental for owner-seeks-occupancy reasons.
 
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http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Americas/2012/0529/Is-Canada-about-to-face-US-style-housing-meltdown

Fairly even-handed piece and I agree with most of the points. However, even with better lending practices, if you have a 95% CMHC-insured loan on a half-mill house, that's still a $475k loan. If your house/condo goes down 25% in price to $375,000, you're $100k underwater. Do you really want to pay that off, knowing it's 'dead money' to you (although you get to keep your credit score)? What if you have a kid, and instead of paying that mortgage and having the kid sleeping with you, you're willing to suck up the credit hit to get a 2nd bedroom in a rental?

I think that there will be a little more pain than we're willing to admit, if prices go down rather than just sideways until inflation/real incomes rise enough to bring house valuation back to normal.

interesting article ...
i guess i should not be surprised at how delusional some people are:

Still, Toronto real estate agent Melanie Piche says she expects real estate prices to continue rising.

“People see their friends, how much money they have made in real estate,” she said. “And there aren’t a lot of safe places to put your money right now. Where else can you make 10 percent?”

Douglas agrees, and said he thinks of his purchase as an investment, similar to buying into the stock market.

“I would say prices are hyperinflated. But for the price of housing to go down in Toronto, that I can’t see,” he said. “Simple supply and demand dictate that as long as the city continues to grow, there will be a demand for housing and that will keep prices up.”

i concur with TD Bank Vice President Craig Alexander that there wont' be a "US-style problem with high foreclosures" and it's because of our full recourse mortgages.

however, that doesn't mean prices can't/won't fall by just as much. what it really means is that the underwater owner has been strangled with 25-year monthly obligations until they default and file for bankruptcy.
 
i concur with TD Bank Vice President Craig Alexander that there wont' be a "US-style problem with high foreclosures" and it's because of our full recourse mortgages.

however, that doesn't mean prices can't/won't fall by just as much. what it really means is that the underwater owner has been strangled with 25-year monthly obligations until they default and file for bankruptcy.

While I'm sure Mr. Alexander is a very nice man, TD's immediate worry isn't whether prices fall and people are underwater, but that they pay their monthly stipend. And, he's right: given our better/tighter mortgage obligations, his bank will get paid back on a much greater proportion of mortgages than Bank of America.
 
Everyone is aware that there are 50 US states and they each have their own rules regarding recourse mortgages... right? Only 12 states allow non-recourse mortgages - the other 38 (as well as all US territories, etc.) are fully recourse.

To read some of the posts here, one would think that the US is homogeneous, but it's clearly not. The overwhelming majority of American's can't, and couldn't, walk away from their mortgages.
 
Everyone is aware that there are 50 US states and they each have their own rules regarding recourse mortgages... right? Only 12 states allow non-recourse mortgages - the other 38 (as well as all US territories, etc.) are fully recourse.

To read some of the posts here, one would think that the US is homogeneous, but it's clearly not. The overwhelming majority of American's can't, and couldn't, walk away from their mortgages.

http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/corp/nero/jufa/jufa_018.cfm

While slightly self-serving, CMHC's compendium gives the major differences between the two countries. While the term 'overwhelming majority' sounds good, the reality is that Canadians are in arrears or default on tenths of percentages of mortgages (~0.3-0.5%, IIRC), while the US number is 10x that or more. That's a big difference.
 
From the Star today: more interesting statistics
Wary homeowners paying off mortgages faster

Mortgage debt in Canada is not out of control, a new report says. But while Canadians say they are comfortable with their level of debt, they admit to being a little worried about everyone else's.
Tara Walton/Toronto Star
By Susan Pigg | Wed May 30 2012
Canadians are “well positioned” to weather a rise in interest rates and are heeding the warnings from Ottawa about the risks of being house poor, according to a new study that provides a fascinating glimpse of mortgage indebtedness.
Some 83 per cent of Canadians have at least 25 per cent equity in their homes and homeowners are making significant efforts to get out of debt early with 23 per cent increasing their monthly payments, 19 per cent making lump-sum payments and 10 per cent doing both.
The average increase in payments is $400 to $450 per month, resulting in a combined $7 billion worth of voluntary extra payments per year among Canada’s 5.85 million mortgage holders, according to a survey by the Canadian Association of Accredited Mortgage Professionals (CAAMP), the national association for some 12,500 mortgage brokers.
Lump sum payments averaged $12,500, amounting to a combined $13.75 billion worth of fast-tracking mortgages, says the report released Wednesday.
Related: Households could withstand 40% price drop
Despite wildly escalating house prices, especially in major centres like Vancouver, Toronto and Calgary, the average outstanding principal is just $170,000, according to the report authored by economist Will Dunning.
There are currently about 9.85 million homeowners in Canada and just under 6 million of them have mortgages. While 3.75 million may be mortgage-free, they may have other debt not reflected by the study.
Perhaps not surprisingly, most of those surveyed feel comfortable with their own level of debt — but they worry about others.
“There’s a bit of a disconnect there,” acknowledges Jim Murphy, president and CEO of CAAMP. “But the research tells us that people can handle it (their mortgage debt.) There is a small minority — maybe one or two per cent — who would have trouble if interest rates start to rise.”
Finance Minister Jim Flaherty and Bank of Canada governor Mark Carney have been unrelenting the last few months in their warnings about the historically high levels of household debt and have made significant moves to rein in the ability of Canadians to borrow with abandon.
Banks have been warned to be responsible in their lending and home equity line of credits have also come under the microscope as Canada’s housing boom has helped turn homes into virtual ATMs to finance home renovations, investments and indulgences like travel.
Canadians currently have $994 billion in outstanding mortgages on primary residences. They owe some $161 billion in Home Equity Lines of Credit (HELOCs.)
Just in the last year Canadian homeowners have taken out $46 billion in HELOCs, with $17.25 billion used to finance renovations, $10 billion to fund investments and $9.25 billion for debt consolidation, says the survey, Confidence in the Canadian Mortgage Market.
The report notes that Canadians with HELOCs have an average of 82 per cent equity in their homes while those with a combination of mortgages and HELOCs have an average of 41 per cent equity in their homes.
“Generally the numbers are very good. We’re not the United States. We’re not Spain,” says Murphy. “But we need to be mindful that we’re not always going to be in a low interest rate environment and that it’s always good to pay down your mortgage and live within your means.”
For the first time, the annual spring survey also took a look at the rental market, asking why more renters aren’t buying: 52 per cent cited the inability to cobble together a down payment.
And it issued a subtle warning to Ottawa, which has already tightened up bank mortgage and amortization rules and fears persist that there is more to come, including an increase in minimum down payments.
“Data gathered in this study suggests that if the minimum down payment in Canada was 10 per cent rather than the current 5 per cent, during 2007 to the present, home purchases might have been 100,000 units per year less than they were,” the survey says.
The fallout could have hurt the construction industry, house prices — which may have fallen — reduced consumer confidence and created a tighter rental market with increase rents.
“It is essential for the health of the housing market, and therefore for the broader Canadian economy, to maintain access to high-ratio mortgage funding,” it notes.
 
83 per cent of Canadians have at least 25 per cent equity in their homes...

Which also means that 17% of Canadians would be underwater if house prices across the country dropped 25%. Me wonders, what the percentage would be if house prices dropped further than just 25%... :confused:
 
Which also means that 17% of Canadians would be underwater if house prices across the country dropped 25%. Me wonders, what the percentage would be if house prices dropped further than just 25%... :confused:
The bigger question is how many have 20% equity or 15% equity in their homes, etc. Being 5% underwater is bad, but not the end of the world.
 

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