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Baby, we got a bubble!?

Hi Downtowner1, it is good to be thinking as you are. I would like to offer my opinion for your consideration as briefly as I can without getting into the ins and outs:

It would take an unanticipated shock to the economy for house prices to decline by more than 20% within a year. Consider that for years ’90 to’92, the average GTA resale price (source TREB historic market watch) declined by 8.1%, 8.3% and 3.9% respectively. In total its total decline of 27.6% took 7 years. If by chance those declines may have been tempered by the fact that the exorbitant interest rates were also decreasing – the opposite could be true this time.

Lacking a current shock, I suggest that rather than to panic sell and or buy in anticipation of the correction, you should continue to keep a keen eye on the market as it unfolds.

If the market corrects, condominiums, especially smaller units are most vulnerable. 1 plus bedroom units can fare only slightly better than bachelors and 1 bedroom units. Interest rates are also likely to rise slowly at some point in time. You’re almost at the 5 year mortgage term end with somewhere around 30-35% equity it seems (after adjusting for land transfer tax and developer fees/). In order to buy a home now you need that equity as a down payment. What I think you should consider is the cost of carrying the mortgage on a new purchase for 5 years at today’s fixed rate then assume that at the end of the 5 years the value of whatever purchase price you have in mind has dropped by 20-30% and recalculate your equity based on new market price adjusted for land transfer tax less outstanding mortgage.

Is it more or less than:

The cost of renewing your current outstanding mortgage at today’s rate after making the same assumption for the decline in value and recalculating the equity remaining after deducting the outstanding mortgage?

Are either of these less than taking out your current equity plus any saved amount between owning and renting and investing at a reasonable rate of return for 5 years?

Ignore trying to extrapolate condo fees and house maintenance fees, but factor in tax on investment earnings.

I’ll add one more thing. I was advised last week by a mortgage broker I regularly refer that lending companies have been requiring higher down payments and instituting more stringent lending requirements. If you do decide to sell and buy, it’s worthwhile getting a pre-approval letter first not just a pre-qualification.
 
With pricing starting to collapse in Vancouver, we can conclude that the myth that Canada is different with respect to Real Estate Prices argument is settled.

We can also conclude that the idea that our Banks are 100% safe is also proven to be a myth.

So... let's now guess how far and when we should expect to see lower prices in Toronto. Is 33 months... still in play???.. or will it be sooner. But... perhaps we shouldn't be saying... I told you so.

However... what is the reasonable price for a Toronto condo downtown... please do tell????.... Some vultures want to know... :)
 
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As a "vulture" Mccookie there will be some opportunities coming up when the speculators get caught no doubt. Desperation of sellers and cash buyers if credit dries up will dictate the prices.

I don't think we should be saying any more I told you so than people who were saying those who thought prices were going to continue up were saying so before. It was offensive when it was rubbed in people's faces on the way up so why find common ground at the lowest common denominator.

I would point out that the article said prices were still rising in Vancouver. That said, I am quite sure all that represents is the last arrivals at the party not appreciating that it is over. As inventory builds and properties stay longer on the market, prices will drop.

In 1989 when the market stopped (February 1989 in Oakville) it stopped on a dime. Sentiment changed and the prices dropped slowly but kept dropping. Also psychologically, it is easy to get up on the horse (watch prices climb and adjust) but tough for sellers to not hold to hope that they will drop only mildly and for the short term. Furthermore, the 2008 to 2009 9 month drop followed by a quick upward march may well encourage people to think even if there is a drop it will be short term and recover.

I personally think the prices will be lower by year end this year or more likely mid 2013. Just my guess. I am not sure how much "silliness" is in the speculator market (downtown TO condos). In other words, how many are out there with 20% equity and 5 or 10 properties which they could not possibly qualify to refinance or take over.
 
This is one house, the nicest probably, in the Beaches....a hot area. It only takes one person "who has to have it".

This too will be hit if there is a correction.

Condos in downtown do not have this uniqueness and there is a lot of vendors/investors/speculators potentially who would put their condo on the market at the same time. Many will be in a position of having to sell. I am not so sure the person with this house "has to sell" so it may not respond in the same fashion.

I appreciate you are putting this out there for "interest" but it does not counter the argument in any fashion in my view Eug.

Besides, anyone can "ask" anything they want.
 
I wasn't trying to counter any argument. I was just unaware before that houses in that price category existed in The Beach.

The fact that it is actually ON The Beach is a huge plus, but it seems that house is a huge anomaly for the area. They bought a nice property in a great location, and then put a huge amount of money into it, so that now it's priced way beyond anything else in the neighbourhood. I just checked MLS, and there is not even just one other single family home in the area that's listed over $2.5 million.

So, at $8 million, it's gonna be a really tough sell IMO, a much harder one than an $8 million at say near Bayview, north of Eglinton.
 
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I apologize Eug. I thought you were pointing out that people are still asking "huge" numbers which I guess they are.

To quote PT BARNUM (I believe it was he of Barnum and Bailey): There is one (a sucker) born every minute.

Buying an $8 million dollar home in a $1-2 million dollar neighbourhood is definitely not a wise investment. I appreciate that
a home to live in is more than an investment but 3-4x the highest price in the neighbourhood?

I guess there may 1 person who wants to be the "big fish" in the small pond rather than being one of many fish "hear Bayview, north of Eglington" as you point out.
 
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I apologize Eug. I thought you were pointing out that people are still asking "huge" numbers which I guess they are.

To quote PT BARNUM (I believe it was he of Barnum and Bailey): There is one (a sucker) born every minute.

Buying an $8 million dollar home in a $1-2 million dollar neighbourhood is definitely not a wise investment. I appreciate that
a home to live in is more than an investment but 3-4x the highest price in the neighbourhood?

I guess there may 1 person who wants to be the "big fish" in the small pond rather than being one of many fish "hear Bayview, north of Eglington" as you point out.

isn't that contrary to popular realtor advice?

the recommendation is better to buy the worse and smallest house in the best neighbourhood;
AND when renovating, never over renovate beyond the neighbourhood.

the lot's not that big either (50.00x124.42 FT) so it's not like a buyer could sever the property to a custom home builder, etc.
and your neighbour is a 4s apartment with balconies overlooking your backyard !
 
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Agree totally with you cdr.

My suspicion is that the seller if he spent anywhere above 4 million will have trouble getting it out. The area simply does not command these prices.

Even $4 mill I think is a stretch.
 
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The area can handle $2.5 million easily IMO, but yeah $4 million may be a stretch. $8 million? Good luck.

A higher price would be doable with a special oversized lot, but this one is not (besides the beach part), and it is in a very high traffic area. The backyard backs onto a popular public part of the beach. Just imagine if Rob Ford owned that piece of land. He'd have a coronary in the first week with all the people and their dogs looking in.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=412+L...o,+Toronto+Division,+Ontario,+Canada&t=h&z=19
 
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i concur with you both ... i think $4 million would be stretching it.

but who knows, maybe there's a foreign buyer out there that's ignorant of the location and thinks they will 'own' that stretch of beach.
 
The area can handle $2.5 million easily IMO, but yeah $4 million may be a stretch. $8 million? Good luck.

A higher price would be doable with a special oversized lot, but this one is not (besides the beach part), and it is in a very high traffic area. The backyard backs onto a popular public part of the beach. Just imagine if Rob Ford owned that piece of land. He'd have a coronary in the first week with all the people and their dogs looking in.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=412+L...o,+Toronto+Division,+Ontario,+Canada&t=h&z=19

As we're in the process of listing our house, we had an interesting conversation with our agents about pricing like this. Apparently, in many cases (and this might not be one of them), a way-overvalued listing is a bit of an agent scam. They've pitched the listing by offering up a pie-in-the-sky figure to get the client to sign (especially in competition with other agents). Then, when the house doesn't sell in the first few weeks, they persuade the sellers to lower the price to actual valuation levels and the new listing gets the sale. That type of agent is interested in getting the listing and getting the sale, but not necessarily getting the maximum price for the client.
 
As we're in the process of listing our house, we had an interesting conversation with our agents about pricing like this. Apparently, in many cases (and this might not be one of them), a way-overvalued listing is a bit of an agent scam. They've pitched the listing by offering up a pie-in-the-sky figure to get the client to sign (especially in competition with other agents). Then, when the house doesn't sell in the first few weeks, they persuade the sellers to lower the price to actual valuation levels and the new listing gets the sale. That type of agent is interested in getting the listing and getting the sale, but not necessarily getting the maximum price for the client.
The "pie-in-the-sky" figure is usually < 25% higher than fair value, and usually well under that.

In the MLS listing, they claim it was appraised for more than $8 million.

BTW:

Canadians Dominate World’s 10 Strongest Banks

CIBC (CM) was No. 3 in Bloomberg Markets’ second annual ranking of the world’s strongest banks, followed by three of its Canadian rivals: Toronto-Dominion Bank (TD) (No. 4), National Bank of Canada (NA) (No. 5) and Royal Bank of Canada (No. 6), the country’s largest lender. Bank of Nova Scotia ranked 18th, and Bank of Montreal was 22nd.
 
The "pie-in-the-sky" figure is usually < 25% higher than fair value, and usually well under that.

In the MLS listing, they claim it was appraised for more than $8 million.

BTW:

Canadians Dominate World’s 10 Strongest Banks

CIBC (CM) was No. 3 in Bloomberg Markets’ second annual ranking of the world’s strongest banks, followed by three of its Canadian rivals: Toronto-Dominion Bank (TD) (No. 4), National Bank of Canada (NA) (No. 5) and Royal Bank of Canada (No. 6), the country’s largest lender. Bank of Nova Scotia ranked 18th, and Bank of Montreal was 22nd.


The pie in the sky is so ridiculous that if an agent said to me the fair value was $8 mill and then said 2 weeks later, it is really $4 million, I would yank the listing and report him. My suspicion is the buyer is seeking this money for his property which he will not get unless someone absolutely "has to have it".

The CIBC is the Canadian bank that has had the most mis steps year after year. So I am surprised it would be ranked 3rd of all the World Banks and ahead of the other Canadian Banks. Wonder how they arrived at this conclusion.
 

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