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Baby, we got a bubble!?

Thesb, I believe your last point is a very valid one.

The other issue I think is that in the core the condo prices are being pushed up more than is reasonable since the developers simply can and greed I believe has set in. when the investors decide these precon prices don't make sense, I think a drop is in sight. I also expect a certain amount of projects will be cancelled and I think those buying in 2012 with the large premiums are certainly exposing themselves to a possible downward revision of the Precon on completion.
 
I would like to first address David Fleming’s blog. He more often than not makes many valid points as he does in that particular post but he also often lets his bias get in the way by misstating facts. The reader should be mindful that his, as an opinion, is not required to be grounded in fact but as a Realtor he is required to factually represent the profession’s practices when he speaks to same. In that regard, it shouldn’t have been missed by anyone that within the post he opines that pre-con agents undeservedly make too much for doing too little yet in response to a commenter who presumes that rebates to buyers from the agents is illegal, he does not firstly correct this wrong assumption and secondly, he negates his previous position by stating that any reputable agent would not devalue himself by doing this – which can only apply to the giving of rebates. They are either over compensated or deserve same it cannot be both.

To Interested’s point. What is little understood is that builders raise their initial capital by going to the major sources of same – repeat and known investors. Firstly by approaching their own backers then moving to the next most available resource the Realtors who consistently bring in buyers and who have been hired by repeat investors to source and research such opportunities. In addition, builders more often now exclusively hire a brokerage to assist in the stages of the development anywhere from draft to final sales with the major cost of advertising resting with the brokerages. Anyone familiar with Brad Lamb before he himself became a developer knows this system. Builders therefore offer the highest commission fees and bonuses to Realtors with a known rolodex of buyers. Once the initial capitalization is met they turn to the next in line - the other Realtors with clients and the general public.

If a one-off or occasional investor wants an early foot in the door then they need to understand not only the process but also that regardless of how little they believe a Realtor would benefit them in negotiating with the builder, without any of these inside tracks, to the builder, they don’t exist until they walk through the doors of the showroom. Even so a walk-in if they know how can negotiate discounts from the builders.
 
From the Globe today:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...le-this-time-is-not-different/article2347630/

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...s-time-is-not-different/article2347630/page2/

Expert's Podium
Canada's housing bubble: This time is not different
George Athanassakos | Columnist profile | E-mail
Published Thursday, Feb. 23, 2012 2:03PM EST
Last updated Thursday, Feb. 23, 2012 2:10PM EST


The resilience of the Canadian housing market continues to confound experts. Last April, I wrote about the hot housing sector in Canada. Since then this sector has become even hotter, exhibiting strong signs of a classic bubble. More than ever before, I believe that Canada’s housing market is due for a severe correction.
More related to this story

Bank of Canada issues fresh warning on debt
Bubble trouble in housing
Housing cools as sellers hold back

Bubbles are hard to see in advance and even harder to know when they will burst. No matter how high prices go, there are always analysts who try to justify them by arguing that “this time things are different”. This was the case during the dot com bubble in late 1990s and this is what has been happening nowadays with the housing bubble in Canada.

I have heard many arguments of why this time it is different. Toronto, for example, is becoming New York or London and current prices are thus justified. Bank economists are also justifying current house prices with convoluted explanations arguing that this time things are different ignoring multiple signals of overvaluation that have worked very well historically and in other environments. But as Sir John Templeton said, the most misused expression in the world is “this time is different”. It is never different.

Statistics never lie
One can massage the data to give them a twist to support one’s argument, but unadulterated data do not lie. House price increases have not been matched by underlying increases in fundamentals such as growth in disposable income, growth in GDP per capita, inflation, population growth, annual immigration growth or the rental indexes produced by CMHC. The ratio of house prices to rent (a ratio equivalent to price to earnings ratio used to identify valuation risks in stocks) is now higher in Canada than in any other developed country.

Moreover, average house prices are now 12 times personal disposable income, way above historical averages. This ratio reached 9.7 times in the last housing bubble in the late 1980s. As a result, household debt as a per cent of disposable income has risen to over 153 per cent in Canada, reaching record levels and coming close to the levels that the U.S. reached before the housing crash.

In economics, it all comes down to demand vs. supply. Canada has a significant excess supply of housing that sooner or later will have to be reflected in lower prices. Toronto, for example, is at the top of the world when it comes to the number of condo buildings under construction.

Housing investment as a share of GDP climbed towards a record high last year. It reached 7 per cent of GDP as at the end of 2011 vs. a 50-year average of 5.8 per cent and previous peaks of about 7.26 per cent in the late 70’s and 7.18 per cent in the late 80’s. After residential housing investment as a percentage of GDP peaked in the previous two cycles, the housing market crashed within a few years. This ratio peaked at about 6.1 per cent in the U.S. in the mid-2000s at the height of its housing bubble, and toward the end of the 1980s in Japan, when that country was nearing the end of its own property boom.

At the same time, the home ownership rate has reached 70 per cent in Canada – it was 69 per cent in the U.S. at the peak of the housing bubble there. Where will demand come from in light of aging population and negative demographic trends?
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And all this happens when unemployment problems are finally hitting Toronto and other white collar cities. Recent employment statistics show that employment in finance, insurance and real estate has tumbled for five straight months as of January. In fact, job levels in these industries have fallen by 4.6 per cent since last year. And these are jobs lost in Toronto, which now has an unemployment rate of 8.6 per cent well above the national 7.6 per cent, and in other large metropolitan areas.

Two developments have propped up the housing market in Canada and have delayed the correction. First is globalization which has benefited Canada as the country has been an oasis of stability in an uncertain world. Over 60 per cent of all new condos in Toronto are bought by investors – the number rises to 80 per cent in the centre of the city. Influx of non-resident Chinese and world investors have driven condo prices in key cities. Foreign investors are buying up to five properties each.

Second, low interest rates and the belief that real estate holds its value better than other forms of investing are also driving the housing market in Canada. Small down payments along with CHMC mortgage insurance, loosened lending standards and mortgage rate competition by Canadian banks have all helped the housing boom.

“We do not see a catalyst for the bursting of the bubble”, many bank economists and real estate agents argue. But it is normally what we do not anticipate (or we do not know that we do not know) that pricks the bubble. On the other hand, events we may expect to cause the bubble to burst are:

- faster than expected economic growth, especially in the U.S., may prompt the Fed to raise interest rates aggressively to quell inflation fears that the excess liquidity in the system, resulting from various stimulus packages and Quantitative Easing programs, can easily ignite;

- an unexpectedly improving economy and a better performing stock market may hit investing in real estate as less economic uncertainty may shift funds away from perceived safe havens, such as government bonds and real estate, into alternative investments; and additional government regulation against housing speculation; and

- increasing opportunities in other parts of the world may also hurt real estate prices in Canada.

Canada’s high house prices in relation to incomes, combined with record household debt levels and overinvestment in residential construction, combined with a slowdown in demand, will cause a severe correction in the real estate market. This time it is not different. It never is.
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5 comments



I find one really interesting point. For once I see in print 60% as quoted as investors and 80% in the core for condos. I would like to know the source of this data and is it accurate or just thrown in for "effect".
 
Thank you for posting Interested. I missed that article earlier when I ventured over to the Globe's site.

Quite the contrast from the Forex article posted yesterday.
 
Based on internal numbers from my firm I saw today* the percentage increase in Canadian Residential real estate prices in Q4 2011 was the third highest of the past 48 quarters (12 years). The only two quarters to surpass it were Q3 2007 and Q2 2001.

*I know this is all unsourced but I am simply not allowed to share the actual document or data, so believe me if you like or not!
 
"Vietnam-parks-its-skyscraper-projects", not Toronto in the headline yet... but it's interesting that Stephen Harper even mentioned that Canada isn't an island a few months ago... yet we cling to the believe that real estate prices will continue to cruise higher indefinitely.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...parks-its-skyscraper-projects/article2347877/

The best paragraph...
Phan Thu Ha, a 40-year-old housewife who bought an apartment in the Botanic Towers complex in Phu Nhuan district in 2010, is one of many small investors sitting on substantial paper losses. “I feel very frustrated,” she says. “One of my friends from Hanoi just came here and bought an apartment in Botanic Towers but she paid much less than I did in 2010.”

Of course in a diverse city like Toronto, with millions of buyers as confident as KA1, nothing like this will ever happen. :)
 
Macookie;
while I agree with your conclusion satirically put forward that nothing like this will ever happen; there are huge differences in Vietnam with rampant inflation (even if coming down now); a massive growth from 2007 which we have not had. Rather, I wonder if one would research the numbers if real estate pulled a double or tripling in the past 5 years much like some of the US (Florida/Nevada/Arizona) did from 2000-2006 and hence the ability to fall so drastically.

Please understand I am not saying it can't happen here. Of course it can, but it would take a very drastic turn of events. that said, I am aware the US Banks and one could argue the Canadian banks and for that matter most banks in the world exposed to real estate are "zombie banks" but this would mean another Lehman moment if this comes to fruition and then not only real estate but you will recall the stock market was severely affected along with other asset classes (and gold sky rocketed.)
 
Let's talk about crazy asset prices...

81 Macpherson Ave sold today for $2,328K, which was $333K over asking.
289 Westmount Ave sold today for $629K, which was $130K over asking.
59 Forest Grove Dr sold today for $2,530K, $60K less than asking... (taxes were considerably less than MacPherson, value???)
92 Northly Dr (semi) sold today for $610K, which was $41K over asking.
84 Castle Knock Rd sold today for $1,005K, which was $210K over asking.

That was only today... (I'll list more tomorrow like this....) I don't see any problems with today's market... at long as interest rates remain low, and that people remain rational and don't panic ever, and that banks are due diligent in accessing the real value of these homes, ensuring that appraisals are completed with standards that are a little more professional than like those done during the pre-crash in Florida/Nevada/Arizona because these some of these loans are ultimately insured by taxpayers via CMHC. :)
 
" Of course in a diverse city like Toronto, with millions of buyers as confident as KA1, nothing like this will ever happen. :)

This is Toronto and not Vietnam.

Look at interested. He spent almost all of 2010 predicting armagaddon from the pulpit, in March/April 2011. Now even he has changed the tune. Now, it could happen .. but it will not happen.

With the passing of time, you will see the folly of your arguments. Then,you will regret not dipping your toes in the R/E market when the time was right.:)
 
With the passing of time, you will see the folly of your arguments. Then,you will regret not dipping your toes in the R/E market when the time was right. :)

Of course Florida isn't Vietnam, or any of the other cities that have seen price decrease. I highly doubt that I will regret dipping my toes into boiling water, that many other rational adults have wisely chosen to do so. :)
 
Look at interested. He spent almost all of 2010 predicting armagaddon from the pulpit, in March/April 2011.

In fairness Ka1, I did not predict armagaddon. I said I thought we would have a correction which has not yet happened. I still believe we will get a correction.
I believed a long with a lot of very smart people that 2008 was a very major event and I did believe at that time we could have a major correction. Somehow the significance of2008 has been marginalized. In that time frame in Canada at least, other than a brief correction from late 2008 to early/mid 2009; prices have not only recouped but continued to escalate.
I still believe that things are not hugely better than in 2008. We have had low interest rates, money made available through Quantitative easing and other similar programs with different names and in spite of all this massive liquidity, wages are not rising to any degree, the provinces debts are climbing(read the Drummond report), indebtedness of consumers is at an all time high at 153% of income, but everything is great......until it won't be.
while I may not share macookie's view in entirety, his view is at least arrived at based on metrics.
I still believe that eventually this will come into play.

I feel we need Macookie to distinguish the housing in the Toronto vs. the condo market. There really is no room to build houses in the main central part of Toronto (other than infil) and I believe there is demand which will continue for this. That said, the overbidding is prompted/supported by ridiculously low interest/mortgage rates. Eventually rates will either come up or the alternative is the realization will set in that the economy has and continues to flounder and hence further increased pricing in the absence of wage increases to support it is unsustainable and the correction will occur. The longer the imbalance continues, the more significant the pain will be.
 
Let's talk about crazy asset prices...

81 Macpherson Ave sold today for $2,328K, which was $333K over asking.
289 Westmount Ave sold today for $629K, which was $130K over asking.
59 Forest Grove Dr sold today for $2,530K, $60K less than asking... (taxes were considerably less than MacPherson, value???)
92 Northly Dr (semi) sold today for $610K, which was $41K over asking.
84 Castle Knock Rd sold today for $1,005K, which was $210K over asking.

That was only today... (I'll list more tomorrow like this....) I don't see any problems with today's market... at long as interest rates remain low, and that people remain rational and don't panic ever, and that banks are due diligent in accessing the real value of these homes, ensuring that appraisals are completed with standards that are a little more professional than like those done during the pre-crash in Florida/Nevada/Arizona because these some of these loans are ultimately insured by taxpayers via CMHC. :)



I have no idea about any of these homes but my question is this...where these houses set at prices low enough to generate bidding wars and under "present value" when compared to other sales in the recent past?

As well, I believe you and I and many on this forum will acknowledge when a pendulum swings too much in one direction, the return swing also tends to be exaggerated so the longer and more ridiculous prices become, the greater the inherent risk to the market as a whole
 
I believed a long with a lot of very smart people that 2008 was a very major event and I did believe at that time we could have a major correction. Somehow the significance of2008 has been marginalized. In that time frame in Canada at least, other than a brief correction from late 2008 to early/mid 2009; prices have not only recouped but continued to escalate.
I still believe that things are not hugely better than in 2008. We have had low interest rates, money made available through Quantitative easing and other similar programs with different names and in spite of all this massive liquidity, wages are not rising to any degree, the provinces debts are climbing(read the Drummond report), indebtedness of consumers is at an all time high at 153% of income, but everything is great......until it won't be.
while I may not share macookie's view in entirety, his view is at least arrived at based on metrics.
I still believe that eventually this will come into play.

I feel we need Macookie to distinguish the housing in the Toronto vs. the condo market. There really is no room to build houses in the main central part of Toronto (other than infil) and I believe there is demand which will continue for this. That said, the overbidding is prompted/supported by ridiculously low interest/mortgage rates. Eventually rates will either come up or the alternative is the realization will set in that the economy has and continues to flounder and hence further increased pricing in the absence of wage increases to support it is unsustainable and the correction will occur. The longer the imbalance continues, the more significant the pain will be.

agreed.

in 2008, Canada avoided a major correction because many were enticed by dramatic drop in interest rates from a high of 4.25% at the beggining of 2008-01-01 to 1.50% by the end of the year.

rates continued to be cut further to a low of 0.25% on 2009-04-21 and were maintained there until 2010-06-01, where they have been gradually increased by 0.25% to 1.00% currently.

http://www.bankofcanada.ca/rates/interest-rates/canadian-interest-rates/

historically, it took 15-18 years for property values to double.
since 1996, TO property values have 2.5-3.0x; since 2000, property values have at least 2.0-2.5x.

from G&M article:

House price increases have not been matched by underlying increases in fundamentals such as growth in disposable income, growth in GDP per capita, inflation, population growth, annual immigration growth or the rental indexes produced by CMHC. The ratio of house prices to rent (a ratio equivalent to price to earnings ratio used to identify valuation risks in stocks) is now higher in Canada than in any other developed country.



re: SFH vs. condos

from what i've heard/seen, historically when prices go up, SFH rise first then condos follow.
when prices go down, condos fall first then SFH follow.
also SFH tend to maintain their values better than condos.
 
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