TheKingEast
Senior Member
Thompson is nowhere near luxury.
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Baby, we got a bubble!?
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Eug
Senior Member
I think this is one of the problems with downtown condo projects these days. I'm a pretty well off guy, and I consider these luxury. eg. Integrated Subzero fridges, $5000 stoves, granite, high end finishes, direct access to the hotel pool lounge and bar and Scarpetta, room service availability from the hotel, etc.
OK, maybe not ultra high end luxury, but luxury nonetheless. Meanwhile so many people these days pooh-pooh these as "nowhere near luxury", and some are keen on spending even more, for whatever reason.
OK, maybe not ultra high end luxury, but luxury nonetheless. Meanwhile so many people these days pooh-pooh these as "nowhere near luxury", and some are keen on spending even more, for whatever reason.
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interested
Senior Member
Eug,
I will be very curious as to what you think of Tip Top.
We had some friends who looked at it about a few years ago and were really not impressed. They were "older" as in downsizing in their 60's but they were very unimpressed. They actually picked up a place in Queen's Quay. There, the condo fees are close to a $1 which is really hefty. On the other hand, you are paying under 1 million for close to 2000 sq.ft. so about $500/sq.ft. They paid less because they bought in 2008 and got a West face. I believe there are 61 units; 2 at the desk most time, they get valet parking; they have shopping indoors and a beautiful view. So their condo fees are an additional $800/month to the comparable new, but that said, they have exclusivity, and their taxes are probably about $6000/year or $500/month less and they they don't tie up another $500K for new.
As to the Thomson, while the overall project I don't think is "luxury", I do agree what you describe in post #3422 are definitely high end finishes. And I would say the Thomson is "hi end" for sure. However, I think what may be happening these days is that every project pretty well downtown has granite,nice tiling, and some form of hardwood floors. That said, the subzero and $5000 stoves I agree would be luxury.
I will be very curious as to what you think of Tip Top.
We had some friends who looked at it about a few years ago and were really not impressed. They were "older" as in downsizing in their 60's but they were very unimpressed. They actually picked up a place in Queen's Quay. There, the condo fees are close to a $1 which is really hefty. On the other hand, you are paying under 1 million for close to 2000 sq.ft. so about $500/sq.ft. They paid less because they bought in 2008 and got a West face. I believe there are 61 units; 2 at the desk most time, they get valet parking; they have shopping indoors and a beautiful view. So their condo fees are an additional $800/month to the comparable new, but that said, they have exclusivity, and their taxes are probably about $6000/year or $500/month less and they they don't tie up another $500K for new.
As to the Thomson, while the overall project I don't think is "luxury", I do agree what you describe in post #3422 are definitely high end finishes. And I would say the Thomson is "hi end" for sure. However, I think what may be happening these days is that every project pretty well downtown has granite,nice tiling, and some form of hardwood floors. That said, the subzero and $5000 stoves I agree would be luxury.
TheKingEast
Senior Member
It's not about pooh poohing. You're talking about luxury features in a suite. Most new developments have luxury suites (usually PH or TH). As far as the hotel, I don't understand how that is luxurious. Would you call SOHO a luxury building?
To me...luxury isn't hearing your neighbours running down the halls on the weekend or hearing them giggle through the walls. Luxury isn't not being able to sleep because the hotel is blaring music from the rooftop.
Thompson is just a dressed up version of every run of the mill condo being built. It has the cache that it's attached to Thompson hotel...but really, in terms of construction, features, etc...what makes it any different than say London on the Esplanade or X?
I'm not crapping on Thompson cuz I have a buddy that lives there and it's a nice building...but there's nothing lux about it IMO. Luxury is 1 St. Thomas, Foru Seasons, Ritz, Trump, etc. Buildings where the quality of construction, features, cache, etc....is superior to the average building.
It depends on what your definition of luxury is. Some people may think granite counters = luxury...others may think private elevators = luxury. All these buildings downtown are built with the same features, appliances, etc.
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Eug
Senior Member
I'll have a look, but I'm biased. I don't like those waterfront properties because it's just so dead in the winter. Then again, I shouldn't talk, since I now live in a sleepy neighbourhood in Scarborough - even less action. I guess the other thing that annoyed me though was the fact that the waterfront was always just infested with tourists. However, Tip Top is a bit removed from that, which is a good thing.
As for luxury vs. not, I guess it's all a matter of perspective. Yeah, if you're accustomed to living in $1000 per square foot residences, then yeah, something like Thompson is not going to impress. However, if you're like me and happen to appreciate living in a nice $400-500 per square foot condo, then something that costs 25-50% more (!) is often gonna seem like luxury, although some moreso than others. And what people only looking at pre-builds sometimes forget is that $500 can actually get you a very decent place, just without all the extra amenities and not in the most "hip" neighbourhoods.
Even though car analogies are terrible... To me, an Audi A4 is a luxury car, albeit not a high end one. "Entry level luxury" as it were. I also think a Porche 911 Turbo is luxury, but one that commands more teenage boy drooling than an A4. I also think Lamborghinis are luxury cars, but those are ones that have moved out of the mainstream realm into the land of complete impracticality and unreasonably high cost. Meanwhile I drive a Prius, because I like the car and it's affordable, not just because of gas prices now but also because at the time I got it I got some seriously great tax rebates, several thousand dollars in total actually.
As for luxury vs. not, I guess it's all a matter of perspective. Yeah, if you're accustomed to living in $1000 per square foot residences, then yeah, something like Thompson is not going to impress. However, if you're like me and happen to appreciate living in a nice $400-500 per square foot condo, then something that costs 25-50% more (!) is often gonna seem like luxury, although some moreso than others. And what people only looking at pre-builds sometimes forget is that $500 can actually get you a very decent place, just without all the extra amenities and not in the most "hip" neighbourhoods.
Even though car analogies are terrible... To me, an Audi A4 is a luxury car, albeit not a high end one. "Entry level luxury" as it were. I also think a Porche 911 Turbo is luxury, but one that commands more teenage boy drooling than an A4. I also think Lamborghinis are luxury cars, but those are ones that have moved out of the mainstream realm into the land of complete impracticality and unreasonably high cost. Meanwhile I drive a Prius, because I like the car and it's affordable, not just because of gas prices now but also because at the time I got it I got some seriously great tax rebates, several thousand dollars in total actually.
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interested
Senior Member
Eug,
You are going to be a rich man some day (assuming you are not that already). Smart business decisions every one of them in your post.
I agree with your comments above. There is always something more luxurious, nicer, more modern, more "sleek".
That said, I think KingEast is correct when he does quote the other projects as being "luxury". I know of someone who bought in the Thomson. It was last year and they paid about $550/sq.ft. for a bachelor around 500 sq.ft. However, I have heard that you do hear the neighbours. Also, I think it is a bit of people "trying" to be at the hotspot who are grappling to get into "the lifestyle". At least, that is what is happening with this individual based on what I can surmize. That said, for those who bought at the Thomson, they have done extremely well with their investment because having the Thomson cache has resulted in some extra price appreciation over a short time, at least that is what was mentioned to me.
You are going to be a rich man some day (assuming you are not that already). Smart business decisions every one of them in your post.
I agree with your comments above. There is always something more luxurious, nicer, more modern, more "sleek".
That said, I think KingEast is correct when he does quote the other projects as being "luxury". I know of someone who bought in the Thomson. It was last year and they paid about $550/sq.ft. for a bachelor around 500 sq.ft. However, I have heard that you do hear the neighbours. Also, I think it is a bit of people "trying" to be at the hotspot who are grappling to get into "the lifestyle". At least, that is what is happening with this individual based on what I can surmize. That said, for those who bought at the Thomson, they have done extremely well with their investment because having the Thomson cache has resulted in some extra price appreciation over a short time, at least that is what was mentioned to me.
Eug, I live in that area of the waterfront and really enjoy it. I wouldn't want to live right at Harbourfront; it's crazy busy in the summer. To me, living at the west end is great -- you can enjoy the waterfront when you want, but it's also much quieter than being in the heart of it all. It also depends on lifestyle -- we run, walk, bike and love having the access to the trail. All of the park and trail area is also terrific for our dog. Driving access is also great for leaving/entering the city; I don't have to spend the first hour of a trip just getting out of downtown. TTC is easily accessible. But it's all personal choice.
interested
Senior Member
PinkLucy, \
You are right about the congestion downtown. It took us about 10 minutes along the Lakeshore last Saturday to go about 5 blocks to get to see our friends at Queen's Quay and the height of the tourist season is not upon us. I said I would go "crazy" with the congestion. Interesting thought, we went to a restaurant and did not even bother with the car, just "hopped a cab" (1 person had arthritis otherwise we would have walked). On the other hand, all the activity to watch from the condo is interesting and fun as there is so much happening there. Still..... don't know if I could live with it year around and the lake in winter in my view is cold, damp and really not very nice. Of course, maybe I would be in Florida in winter by then? (hope hope, wish wish). LOL
You are right about the congestion downtown. It took us about 10 minutes along the Lakeshore last Saturday to go about 5 blocks to get to see our friends at Queen's Quay and the height of the tourist season is not upon us. I said I would go "crazy" with the congestion. Interesting thought, we went to a restaurant and did not even bother with the car, just "hopped a cab" (1 person had arthritis otherwise we would have walked). On the other hand, all the activity to watch from the condo is interesting and fun as there is so much happening there. Still..... don't know if I could live with it year around and the lake in winter in my view is cold, damp and really not very nice. Of course, maybe I would be in Florida in winter by then? (hope hope, wish wish). LOL
TheKingEast
Senior Member
Interested, I've lived by a lake for the past 30 years -- most of that time much further north -- so I'm used to it. I love living by water in all seasons, I find it fascinating. Our new condo has amazing lake views and the fog and shifting weather the last couple of days has been intriguing to see.
One of the things I particularly like about my daily excursion along the waterfront in January is that there's not a lot of other people down there -- sometimes the trail gets really busy in the summer
. I think it was last weekend, on one of the few nice days we've had this year, that there was more traffic on the trail than on Lakeshore!
I think pretty much anywhere in the city isn't great during the winter, and as I get older, southern climes definitely appeal!
One of the things I particularly like about my daily excursion along the waterfront in January is that there's not a lot of other people down there -- sometimes the trail gets really busy in the summer
. I think it was last weekend, on one of the few nice days we've had this year, that there was more traffic on the trail than on Lakeshore!I think pretty much anywhere in the city isn't great during the winter, and as I get older, southern climes definitely appeal!
interested
Senior Member
The above article is from the Standard in Hong Kong.
Smart money on Toronto condos
while provinces such as British Columbia – where Vancouver is situated – and Quebec, where Montreal is located, saw only 70,000 to 80,000 transacted. Among the Toronto transactions, 40 percent involved condos. However, this wasn’t the case before the mid-1990s, said Ho, a realtor for more than 20 years.
“The trend started to change in about 1995, when some Hong Kong Chinese started to buy uncompleted condo units, which cost on average only C$150 psf, while that could only get you two car park spaces in Hong Kong at that time,” Ho said.
He added the average price has climbed by C$30 to C$40 psf every two years since then.
To boost their sales performance, some realtors will utilize their overseas networks to sell the properties, Ho said, adding that the developers – on the contrary – aren’t keen on having large-scale international promotions, as sales have been doing just fine.
Ho said most investors look for capital gains rather than rental return. On average, the rent for each square foot was C$2.50, meaning a 680 sq ft apartment can generate a monthly rent of C$1,700.
The condo owner would need to make a mortgage payment of about C$1,617 a month, based on a typical five-year interest rate of 5.69 percent.
In addition, the owner would need to pay property tax and maintenance fees which could add another C$450 per month on average in monthly expenses.
With the huge supply, there may also be a possibility of market softening, Ho warned. But, he added: “So far, the property market here has not had any big correction.”
For investors, as well as condos there are luxury hotels – including the Ritz-Carlton, Four Seasons, Shangri-La and Trump – which offer part of the top floors as residential units, costing from C$1,000 to C$1,700 psf. The name- brand hotels are expected to provide another 200 units to the market this year.
According to Toronto Real Estate Board figures, condos are underperforming other housing types. The average price of a condo from May 1 to 14 was C$330,594 – up just 2 percent from last year – compared with an average price of C$486,223 for the overall Toronto housing market, a year- on-year increase of 8.38 percent.
The sales volume of condos fell 10 percent from a year ago to 972, compared with 4,774 for the overall market, which was down 2.31 percent.
Also, there is uncertainty about the strength of economic recovery in Toronto, which would affect the property market, as there was a large drop of 30,000 in employment in the city in April from March, according to a report by Will Dunning, a service provider of housing market analysis.
Article source: http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail.asp?we_cat=16&art_id=111403&sid=
Smart money on Toronto condos
while provinces such as British Columbia – where Vancouver is situated – and Quebec, where Montreal is located, saw only 70,000 to 80,000 transacted. Among the Toronto transactions, 40 percent involved condos. However, this wasn’t the case before the mid-1990s, said Ho, a realtor for more than 20 years.
“The trend started to change in about 1995, when some Hong Kong Chinese started to buy uncompleted condo units, which cost on average only C$150 psf, while that could only get you two car park spaces in Hong Kong at that time,” Ho said.
He added the average price has climbed by C$30 to C$40 psf every two years since then.
To boost their sales performance, some realtors will utilize their overseas networks to sell the properties, Ho said, adding that the developers – on the contrary – aren’t keen on having large-scale international promotions, as sales have been doing just fine.
Ho said most investors look for capital gains rather than rental return. On average, the rent for each square foot was C$2.50, meaning a 680 sq ft apartment can generate a monthly rent of C$1,700.
The condo owner would need to make a mortgage payment of about C$1,617 a month, based on a typical five-year interest rate of 5.69 percent.
In addition, the owner would need to pay property tax and maintenance fees which could add another C$450 per month on average in monthly expenses.
With the huge supply, there may also be a possibility of market softening, Ho warned. But, he added: “So far, the property market here has not had any big correction.”
For investors, as well as condos there are luxury hotels – including the Ritz-Carlton, Four Seasons, Shangri-La and Trump – which offer part of the top floors as residential units, costing from C$1,000 to C$1,700 psf. The name- brand hotels are expected to provide another 200 units to the market this year.
According to Toronto Real Estate Board figures, condos are underperforming other housing types. The average price of a condo from May 1 to 14 was C$330,594 – up just 2 percent from last year – compared with an average price of C$486,223 for the overall Toronto housing market, a year- on-year increase of 8.38 percent.
The sales volume of condos fell 10 percent from a year ago to 972, compared with 4,774 for the overall market, which was down 2.31 percent.
Also, there is uncertainty about the strength of economic recovery in Toronto, which would affect the property market, as there was a large drop of 30,000 in employment in the city in April from March, according to a report by Will Dunning, a service provider of housing market analysis.
Article source: http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail.asp?we_cat=16&art_id=111403&sid=
Eug
Senior Member
That's sort of like my view of The Beach actually. I like The Beach area in the summer, but I wouldn't want to live there, unless I bought a place in the Fallingbrook area (which isn't actually in The Beach, but is in Scarborough).
Interesting that you mention The Esplanade. My GF used to have a condo there, and back in the day when I was looking for my place (in the 90s) it was called a luxury building.
It certainly is more luxurious than your standard condo building in many smaller cities. As I mentioned, it's a matter of perspective.
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CN Tower
Banned
Why 550 Wellington isn't luxury
It's on Bathurst, it's overcrowded, it's noisy, it's trendy, the suites are average quality and the building looks poorly constructed.
It is new, it is very trendy, Freed has succeeded in creating a legitimate buzz about it and the exterior shell has an attractive and modern design.
In 5 years it will be loaded with transient renters and the condition of the property will deteriorate dramatically.
As an aside I find the hotel to be all hype. The service is awful, the rooms are bare and as indicated above the noise level is unexpectable for a high end hotel. Compare a stay there to Le Germain and you will be shocked. Vegas meets Woodbridge would be my best characterization.
I would recommend it someone <25 looking to party but probably to no one else.
It's on Bathurst, it's overcrowded, it's noisy, it's trendy, the suites are average quality and the building looks poorly constructed.
It is new, it is very trendy, Freed has succeeded in creating a legitimate buzz about it and the exterior shell has an attractive and modern design.
In 5 years it will be loaded with transient renters and the condition of the property will deteriorate dramatically.
As an aside I find the hotel to be all hype. The service is awful, the rooms are bare and as indicated above the noise level is unexpectable for a high end hotel. Compare a stay there to Le Germain and you will be shocked. Vegas meets Woodbridge would be my best characterization.
I would recommend it someone <25 looking to party but probably to no one else.
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johnr
Active Member
Doesn't matter if 550 Wellington is not luxury like the Ritz or Four Seasons, it caters to a younger demographic and is one of the highest demanded buildings in Toronto.
If you've been in the underground parking lot, you'll see the only cars 55 Stewart owners seem to drive are luxury German makes, I've seen a couple Lamborghini's as well.
If you've been in the underground parking lot, you'll see the only cars 55 Stewart owners seem to drive are luxury German makes, I've seen a couple Lamborghini's as well.
KA1
Senior Member
Folks! Just a friendly reminder that this thread is not about 'lifestyle -- on the lake or cars. It is about a bubble. The bubble, as a matter of fact.
This bubble was supposed to have bursted, or at least have sprung a leak, during the months of February/March/April. It has not happened. As always, Interested, once again, has been wrong with his predictions.
In the "New Homes & Condos' section of Saturday's star, there is an article about ' the condominium market juggrernaut marches through April'. In an earlier post, Condo George has hinted that May sales will be spectacular. In another thread 'Pace Condos', a post has been made that 95% of the units were sold in just 1 month. Watch for more sales activities -- and higher prices -- by various builders in that area. On the front page of ' New Homes' section, there is a news item that Daniels Corporation has started construction on the development ( of Cinema Tower) well before sales launch, certain they've got a blockbuster.
In March 2008, unit in AURA, on lower floors were going for $ 550 sq/ft. Interested has stated about prices in downtown core are at $ 750 sq/ft. Units in Cinema Tower start at 420 sq.ft start at mid$300,000. That comes to around $ 850 sq ft, if parking and locker is included.
Does anyone out there still believes -- even with the financial analysis of skewed up data -- in the 'second coming ' of bubble bursting or springing up a leak in the near future?
This bubble was supposed to have bursted, or at least have sprung a leak, during the months of February/March/April. It has not happened. As always, Interested, once again, has been wrong with his predictions.
In the "New Homes & Condos' section of Saturday's star, there is an article about ' the condominium market juggrernaut marches through April'. In an earlier post, Condo George has hinted that May sales will be spectacular. In another thread 'Pace Condos', a post has been made that 95% of the units were sold in just 1 month. Watch for more sales activities -- and higher prices -- by various builders in that area. On the front page of ' New Homes' section, there is a news item that Daniels Corporation has started construction on the development ( of Cinema Tower) well before sales launch, certain they've got a blockbuster.
In March 2008, unit in AURA, on lower floors were going for $ 550 sq/ft. Interested has stated about prices in downtown core are at $ 750 sq/ft. Units in Cinema Tower start at 420 sq.ft start at mid$300,000. That comes to around $ 850 sq ft, if parking and locker is included.
Does anyone out there still believes -- even with the financial analysis of skewed up data -- in the 'second coming ' of bubble bursting or springing up a leak in the near future?