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Baby, we got a bubble!?

I have always said, the true test was back in 2008, when global real estate markets melted, worst time since 29, if we survived that while other markets worldwide lost 30 to 60 percent of their value, what will bring us down now. I remain bullish on real estate not because I sell core condos and resale homes, but because I also invest in what I sell and if there was a better more stable investment other than real estate or if I see storm clouds on the horizon, I would be getting out and moving money into another instrument. I dont read the papers and let fear hold me back from moving forward, I continue to focus on the indicators, rates, unemployment that is absorbing immigration-economy expansion, local and global investors continuing to pour $ here vs abroad and Canada being viewed as a safe place to invest, our currency is a test to that. There are 2 things that worry me somewhat as mentioned above.

You sir are what we call a shill. Nothing further needs to be said.

64 million vacant homes in China
http://www.sbs.com.au/dateline/story/watch/id/601007/n/China-s-Ghost-Cities


This is a screaming warning of the kind of community that we are in danger of creating when a local housing market loses touch with real supply and demand forces and rampant speculation takes hold of a market. There is no official database of condo occupancy and it really would not surprise me to learn that a great many of the units sold in the past 5 years are sitting intentionally unoccupied. In a Planned economy like China the results are more manageable as control is centralized, but if we continue to see a market fueled by Condo George-esque forces I fear we are in danger of a very painful housing market collapse and we won't have a Communist government to bail us out either. Unless of course the NDP pulls off a miracle victory next week but I digress.

Just so you can fully appreciate my objectivity, I have a very strong vested interest in the continued and enduring strength of the Toronto real estate market and I very genuinely hope that my instincts and repetitive common sense analysis is off the mark. I truly have far far more to gain if the party doesn't end than if it does, though I am well positioned to act quickly should distressed opportunities arise. I just don't see how it can go on for much longer at this pace when the speculators are so dominant.

Happy Easter all!
 
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Alternative motive to the above quote CN, wow, if you only knew me you would know how wrong you are. Surprised you have not picked up on that.
 
CNTower,
This is an absolutely fascinating and disturbing video. I have seen this figure and people have disputed 64 million apartments. Some quick math comes up with some alarming numbers: Approx: 1.3 billion people: 64 million empty apartments = 5 % of the total population. And yet they continue to build?

I am frankly more ego centric here and wonder how is this implosion if/when it occurs going to affect us locally.

I have 2 very real concerns. Assuming the Chinese government is not stupid and I do not believe they are for a minute, play this scenario out for/with me. China continues to grow and hopefully the property bubble does not implode over the next 2-3 years say. They continue to build up USD reserves/Euro reserves and continue to buy Western assets which they control. Am I totally off base to assume that the end game if the government is worried about an implosion which they clearly are by virtue of the new rules to slow down the investment ( so they can presumably continue without the implosion building assets by continuing to export to the world) and that the idea is to own as much real assets outside of China and industries, commodities etc. so that when the bubble implodes they now own real industries abroad and have consumers abroad who can actually buy goods?

Then they basically export to the rest of the world the failed social experiment and use the real assets abroad now owned by the Chinese to support their people back home.

A bit like what Wall Street when they packaged up the subprime loans to investors around the world with the aid of all the smart "bankers". Only the scale of this is far more massive potentially.

Please understand, I am in no way anti Chinese should anyone think this. I am asking the hypothetical question that will this next implosion if it truly occurs take a huge amount of the Western economies with it?

CN Tower, I appreciate you believe CG is a "shill". However, please for the rest of us who appreicate his comments; he is entitled to make his opinion heard He admits he is a realtor. He can genuinely believe what he says. I turst he has the integrity to just not post if he believed the opposite was true. All of us can discount his view if we wish but still I for one assume he is telling us the truth about the data as he sees it "on the ground" and find this useful. I do not necessarily agree with his some of his views and confirm his observations from other sources but I prefer to have all the data and decide what I use to come up with my own hopefully somewhat more informed conclusions.

Certainly this video is very alarming if true.

CNTower or others when you look at this video, have you thought at all possible ramifications for us here in Toronto. Will it be that an implosion in China means prices here will be pushed further as those in China with money seek to preserve their outside assets since they no longer feel there is value in China?

I really don't know and am asking for people's insight.
 
CG,
We appreciate we don't have the same vacancy rates. The point I think CN Tower was trying to make was that the same thinking that made lots of Chinese wealthy on paper with their real estate is a ponzi scheme which they are exporting to us. Perhaps I am putting words in CN Tower's mouth and if so, I apologize but he is saying I believe we have a similar problem though perhaps not to the same degree.

As I said, my concern would be does China implode and if it does, does it export the implosion to our property market?
 
The point of building in China has nothing to do with real estate, vacancy rates, or bubbles bursting. They do it so they can continue economic growth and GDP as the documentary states. The government could care less if these building get occupied ever. As long as the economy is still turning they are happy. They are a communist government, and if and when they think it's smart to put the impoverished people in these condos, then that is what they will do. This can and will not ever happen in this country. The type of government we have here and the rules/processes involved in being able to create homes will not facilitate any type of ghost cities in Canada. You can't compare apples to oranges, and that's what some people on this forum are attempting to do. Whether Chinese people are buying properties in Canada is their prerogative. Do you think that the Chinese investors are that naive? I think not. There are no conspiracy theories here. Just smart investors, looking for safer and sounder investments than the U.S.'s, Spain's, and Australia's of the world. Just my two cents.
 
fair enough madmax. Do you think then that they continue their economic growth (low Yuan, export driven economy) to finally accumulate enough reserves so they buy the rest of the world up or a significant portion and then use the money to give their people cheap housing when it bursts in China. The problem from our point of view is this exports their problem to us. Or am I wrong?
 
The point of building in China has nothing to do with real estate, vacancy rates, or bubbles bursting. They do it so they can continue economic growth and GDP as the documentary states. The government could care less if these building get occupied ever. As long as the economy is still turning they are happy.
Actually it is a concern in China too. It is extremely misleading to say that this doesn't matter.

There is one main aspect that is different though. Homes depreciate once occupied, so there is incentive to keep them empty, rather than renting them out. The problem here though is that it's gotten out of hand. Instead of a percentage of units in a complex going unoccupied, there are entire developments are that are almost completely unoccupied, and yes this is a signficant concern to some in China.
 
The point of building in China has nothing to do with real estate, vacancy rates, or bubbles bursting. They do it so they can continue economic growth and GDP as the documentary states. The government could care less if these building get occupied ever. As long as the economy is still turning they are happy. They are a communist government, and if and when they think it's smart to put the impoverished people in these condos, then that is what they will do. This can and will not ever happen in this country. The type of government we have here and the rules/processes involved in being able to create homes will not facilitate any type of ghost cities in Canada. You can't compare apples to oranges, and that's what some people on this forum are attempting to do. Whether Chinese people are buying properties in Canada is their prerogative. Do you think that the Chinese investors are that naive? I think not. There are no conspiracy theories here. Just smart investors, looking for safer and sounder investments than the U.S.'s, Spain's, and Australia's of the world. Just my two cents.


part of what you said is true but not all.

as disclosed, the massive building of ghost cities was the result of GDP quotas enacted by the Chinese gov't.
each region's minister was expected to reach the GDP quota, so the easiest way was construction, whether it be gov't buildings, pvt housing, road construction, infrastructure, etc.

To say the government could care less if these building get occupied ever is not entirely true.
It has taken many steps to try to limit the property bubble there as the majority of the population cannot afford the prices due to massive speculation. in some regions, R/E have appreciated 50% y-o-y and it is 100x average earnings.

although some have gotten richer in China, the majority of the population is still poor or have been priced out.
there is fear of a revolution if things are not cooled down, and a bubble bursting would do alot of damage.
 
Foreign buyers buoy Vancouver housing

In the U.S. the most recent figures show that foreigners are a factor in real estate markets but not a massive one. Foreigners spent $41-billion on U.S. real estate from April, 2009, to March, 2010, about 4 per cent of the American market. Canadians accounted for about quarter, roughly $10-billion, of that total. Buyers from China counted for $3.3-billion, behind Mexico and the United Kingdom.

Of the properties purchased, half of them were bought as a primary residence, with only about a quarter for investment purposes.

The U.S. figures are the result of a survey by researchers at the National Association of Realtors. In Canada, there are no comparable numbers, “because there wasn’t demand for us to collect these statistics,” said Pierre Leduc, a Canadian Real Estate Association spokesman.


-

Ian Gillespie, head of Vancouver developer Westbank Projects Corp., just opened a Shanghai office. In the company’s last major project, the $450-million Fairmont Pacific Rim luxury condo-hotel tower on the harbour, completed last year, Mr. Gillespie said about one-third of the apartments went to people with roots in China, largely for residences rather than investments.

“They’re not coming in to speculate, throwing money at things. They’re not trying to flip. They probably flip less than anybody,” said Mr. Gillespie.


-

Last year’s Winter Olympics has sparked additional interest from overseas, said John Lichtenwald, whose Metro Vancouver Properties sold $3.7-billion of residential real estate in 2010 under the Re/Max banner. He estimated that about of a sixth of his firm’s buyers are foreign, led by those with China roots.
 
From Garth Turner's blog:
I know he has been singing the same tune for years. One bit of interesting data from it however.

http://www.greaterfool.ca/2011/04/24/its-over/#comments

It’s over

April 24th, 2011

Days from now will come hard evidence the fling is done. House prices have finally pushed past the point of sustainability. And that noise you are about to hear is moaning from the Lower Mainland – our own dank little subprime rain forest.

It had to happen, of course. No Canadian city can see the average SFH rise to $1 million, especially one where the average income is $83,130, and expect it to last. And all that stuff about the Asian Invasion being responsible for a permanent escalation in real estate values is so much marketing hype manufactured by creative dinks like Cam Good.

He’s the Vancouver marketing guru who’s been playing the supplicant BC media for the fools they are. He hired a helicopter, for example, to fly local Chinese-Canadian real estate agents over a new condo in White Rock, then spun it as a landmark aerial bombardment of Mainland Chinese dollars on the region. That’s exactly the story the TV reporters wrote, from the back of the Air Scare copter.

And days ago the Vancouver Sun ran a column he wrote castigating people for blaming rising prices in places like Richmond and Richmond Hill on the yellow peril – when he’s been the main igniter of conflict, envy and greed.

“If you suffer from real estate impotence, don’t blame Chinese people. Besides, getting all worked up about it will only make it worse. Have a glass of wine. Relax. Stop feeling sorry for yourself and pick up the phone to call a realtor or a mortgage broker, either of whom will be more than happy to show you how easy it can be to get your real estate groove on.”

But actually, you might want to wait. The market’s started to crumble. The Cam copter just ate turf.

These are internal stats (MLS) from the Vancouver Real Estate Board:

The Richmond market, ground zero for China frenzy, has died.


* Listings have exploded. The number has more than doubled since the beginning of March (going from 400 to 850).
* Sales have collapsed. In February, 250 properties sold. In March, sales were 260. In April, it looks like 120 – down 52%.
* Inventory is swelling. In February there were enough homes listed to last 1.5 months. That has suddenly shot up to 7 months.

And even on the west side of Vancouver, where ugly boxes built 40 years ago were overrun during open houses and have been selling for $1.3 million, sales volumes have just plopped by 30%. Across the entire Van area, it looks like sales volumes will be lower in April by 20%. So much for the Spring market.


Says my source, Deep Throb: “I would expect to see Richmond prices fall by 20% by summer. They had a super spike but the sales have now stopped. Vancouver West – still showing effects from lack of inventory and some serious Asian money on the demand side.

“Inventory at end of April should come in approx 10% below last year. We’ll see where this goes but the market is showing some signs of cracks at the fringes and people are tapped out for ability to pay.”

Of course they’re tapped out. It now takes more than 70% of gross household income to carry the average Vancouver property. Across Canada, it’s almost 50%. Factor in rising interest rates (the next Bank of Canada announcements are May 31 and July 19), higher taxes (that happens after May 2nd), an economy drop-kicked by a $1.05 dollar, structural unemployment and flatlined wages, and there are no economic fundamentals supporting the housing market. Only hormones. Media drivel. Marketing dinks. Delusion. Public hysteria. Your idiot father-in-law. And Chinese. It’s over.

And with that, we whisk to Winnipeg, where Jimmy the musician writes:

I’m an affectionate and fairly new reader of your blog. I’m not in a great position to take much of your advice, sadly, but I’d like to offer you (and maybe your readers, who knows) a different perspective on why I rent.

I’m a professional musician. Having just filed my income taxes, I am known to have made roughly $21,000 last year. Okay, so I’m not in house-buying territory in the first place, so the greater part of the Greater Fool blog isn’t of much practical use to me. Except, of course, that I am in house-buying territory. My partner and I pay roughly $900 in rent a month jointly, meaning that I could find myself holding the reins of a $200,000 mortgage if I so chose (according to certain banks), and replace monthly rental fees with monthly interest payments. And in Winnipeg, where I live, you can find a decent piece of real estate for $200,000. I don’t plan to, and I don’t want to. All financial considerations aside, here’s why:

I don’t have to worry one whit about taking care of this place where I live. I don’t have to cut grass, shovel snow, clean eaves, paint the walls, deal with flooded basements, renovate, rewire, call the plumber, fix the windows, or clean up after inconsiderate people’s dogs. I don’t have time for all of that. I’m a musician – my spare time is called for; I have to practice, to write, to run around the city to do my job (and to read blogs). I can’t be bothered to look after a house. My share of $900 / month is well worth the price.

Plus, I’m doing better than the 40% of Canadians (apparently) who have no savings! I couldn’t believe that when I read it. How can I be financially better off than people making five times my income? I manage to put away what amounts to a monthly pittance now, but if I do it long enough (and musicians don’t tend to have a fixed retirement date) will hopefully add up to something where I can continue to live as I do now into my twilight years.

So tell me. How is it that an apartment-dwelling professional musician clearing $21,000 a year is in a better financial situation than 40% of the country? And, honestly, how bad is it that I am?

Let me know if your blog ever needs a theme song.

I’m taking requests.



Garth has been singing this for years. However the bolded stat needs to be watched because if true and sales do plummet in Richmond, and continues the next few months, one would have to wonder if the rest of Vancouver and then if Toronto follows. Garth is just trying to sell books and justify his wrong call for years but eventually he will be proven right. I just wonder if this is the start of it, or just another "blip".
 
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Check out this quote from Sherry Cooper at BMo

"If incomes climb eight per cent and prices stabilize, as I expect, the current overvaluation would fall to six per cent, hardly the stuff of corrections".
http://www.postcity.com/Post-City-Magazines/April-2011/Real-Estate-Issue-2011-Roundtable/

Do you see what she did there?? She put out a prediction for a 14% decrease, but hid it. Smart lady.

She said:
1. Incomes go up 8%.
2. House prices change 0%.
3. After 1 & 2, house prices will be 6% overvalued.

The whole point about house price valuations is that they are in relation to income, so if incomes go up 8% and house prices are flat, then that means house prices declined in real term.

So as you read things in the news where people predict "flat prices, while incomes catch up", read between the lines and understand what they are saying.
 
Dave,

I read the interview.

I guess Ms. Cooper is hoping for a rise in income over the next few years and static growth in house prices.

Incomes have been rising by roughly 2%/year at most so that means 4 years flat and still overvalued by 6% or 3 years. I state this for most people who have jobs and have been getting a COLA increase. I know of few people without a promotion getting 5-6% increases. And rest assured if we have that kind of wage inflation, interest rates by the BOC are going to go up to reign it in.

This is the so called "soft landing" that a lot of us are hoping for because the alternative, the hard landing is a problem. The most honest person there seems to me to be Harry Stinson. Even Brad Lamb indirectly admitted that medium range (read $600/sq,ft. condos in the core) are questionable from an investment point of view. And this is with the lowest mortgage rates on record for the past 50 years. As they say, the public won't hear about the pulled launches and given the delay in condos from purchase on paper to completion, those buying today are taking a real chance. I don't buy that real estate any more than any other investment goes straight up.

Everyone here seems to be commenting in my view at least as if driving looking through the rear view mirror. Eventually, if not already, most "end users" are stretched. The mass psyche has been polluted to the extent that people in their 60's are carrying mortgages. More and more pople can't afford to retire. Forget those who don't want to retire. I get that but the reality is it is easier to not want to retire when you know you haven't a hope to actually achieve it with any sort of lifestyle unless you have a government or teacher's pension or are a higher up in a bank with stock options which are in the money.

People have been lulled into a sense that it is reasonable to carry massive debt. It is not. Our parents understood that and a fair amount of baby boomers will only retire because their parents leave them money. So much for a successful generation, wealthiest generation in history or not aside.

But for now, the party continues....

When it does, as all parties do, I wonder what the excuse will be.....

Oh, I know, like with the stock market, when it is going up it is "we told you so" and when it crashed, well that's the market and noone could predict it.

Of course we all know that everyone seems to be throwing common sense to the window under the guise that real estate will go up because "it's different here or this time".

So much for my verbosity. I apologize to all.
 

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