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Baby, we got a bubble!?

Man these forums are bit addicitive. I have lots of work to do, I apologize in advance if I dont respond promptly.

Hi Brian,

Any relation to Ben Persaud?

I welcome your points and whole heartedly agree with your positive “long-term” view on real estate investment.

Trouble is, you’re probably wasting time debating these points on this board (although it can be fun). Most here exhibit low risk tolerance and dwell on the negatives whilst ignoring the positives. These people focus on what they think “should” happen but lose sight of what actually “is” happening.

Hmm… I wonder where most people here invest their money? If property is so bad (as usually argued), what do they deem a better investment? :)
 
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There are different people in the world, and take different approaches to investing.

I accept that I know little, and I try to learn from people who know a lot. Such as Bob Farrell, legendary investor at Merrill Lynch. I find his 10 Rules to be quite appropriate during our present RE Bull market.

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/20090807/bob-farrell10-rules-investing.htm

1. Markets tend to return to the mean over time


When stocks go too far in one direction, they come back. Euphoria and pessimism can cloud people's heads. It's easy to get caught up in the heat of the moment and lose perspective.

2. Excesses in one direction will lead to an excess in the opposite direction


Think of the market baseline as attached to a rubber string. Any action too far in one direction not only brings you back to the baseline, but leads to an overshoot in the opposite direction.

3. There are no new eras - excesses are never permanent


Whatever the latest hot sector is, it eventually overheats, mean reverts, and then overshoots. Look at how far the emerging markets and BRIC nations ran over the past six years, only to get cut in half.

As the fever builds, a chorus of "this time it's different" will be heard, even if those exact words are never used. And of course, it - human nature - is never different.

4. Exponential rapidly rising or falling markets usually go further than you think, but they do not correct by going sideways


Regardless of how hot a sector is, don't expect a plateau to work off the excesses. Profits are locked in by selling, and that invariably leads to a significant correction eventually.

5. The public buys the most at the top and the least at the bottom

That's why contrarian-minded investors can make good money if they follow the sentiment indicators and have good timing. Watch Investors Intelligence (measuring the mood of more than 100 investment newsletter writers) and the American Association of Individual Investors Survey.

6. Fear and greed are stronger than long-term resolve

Investors can be their own worst enemy, particularly when emotions take hold. Gains "make us exuberant; they enhance well-being and promote optimism", says Santa Clara University finance professor Meir Statman. His studies of investor behavior show that "Losses bring sadness, disgust, fear, regret. Fear increases the sense of risk and some react by shunning stocks."

7. Markets are strongest when they are broad and weakest when they narrow to a handful of blue-chip names


This is why breadth and volume are so important. Think of it as strength in numbers. Broad momentum is hard to stop, Farrell observes. Watch for when momentum channels into a small number of stocks.

8. Bear markets have three stages - sharp down, reflexive rebound and a drawn-out fundamental downtrend


I would suggest that as of August 2008, we are on our third reflexive rebound - the January rate cuts, the Bear Stearns low in March, and now the Fannie/Freddie rescue lows of July.

We have yet to see the long-drawn-out fundamental portion of the bear market.

9. When all the experts and forecasts agree - something else is going to happen


As Stovall, the S&P investment strategist, puts it: "If everybody's optimistic, who is left to buy? If everybody's pessimistic, who's left to sell?"

Going against the herd as Farrell repeatedly suggests can be very profitable, especially for patient buyers who raise cash from frothy markets and reinvest it when sentiment is darkest.

10. Bull markets are more fun than bear markets

Especially if you are long only or mandated to be fully invested. Those with more flexible charters might squeak out a smile or two here and there.
 
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Hmm… I wonder where most people here invest their money? If property is so bad (as usually argued), what do they deem a better investment? :)

Good point Johnzz. Most of my net worth is in fact concentrated in real estate- real estate acquired a long time ago at fractional amounts to today's prices and at returns that at the time made good sense. I believe things are different today with mostly foreign buyers with different objectives. It's much harder to make money when you are investing your own capital.
 
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Good point Johnzz. Most of my net worth is in fact concentrated in real estate- real estate acquired a long time ago at fractional amounts to today's prices and at returns that at the time made good sense. I believe things are different today with mostly foreign buyers with different objectives. It's much harder to make money when you are investing your own capital.

After all of your doom and gloom sentiments and Toronto RE bashing, you have the gall to tell people on this forum that most of your net worth is invested in real estate....gimme a break!
 
After all of your doom and gloom sentiments and Toronto RE bashing, you have the gall to tell people on this forum that most of your net worth is invested in real estate....gimme a break!

But he purchased at a different time, presumably when he felt conditions were more favourable :confused:
 
After all of your doom and gloom sentiments and Toronto RE bashing, you have the gall to tell people on this forum that most of your net worth is invested in real estate....gimme a break!


i don't think anything he's posted is doom and gloom.

as many have stated, current RE investing based on $500 PSF with 20-25% dp does not provide positive cashflow, which is one of the rules of RE investing.

based on current income/costs, one would have to put 50% dp for the numbers to work, even in this environment of historical low rates.

it only gets worse in 5 years if rates only go up 1%, even though the principal on the mortgage may be paid down by 11%.
 
i don't think anything he's posted is doom and gloom.

as many have stated, current RE investing based on $500 PSF with 20-25% dp does not provide positive cashflow, which is one of the rules of RE investing.

based on current income/costs, one would have to put 50% dp for the numbers to work, even in this environment of historical low rates.

it only gets worse in 5 years if rates only go up 1%, even though the principal on the mortgage may be paid down by 11%.

Yes, and 30 years ago that same condo cost 150k at 200/square foot, and an investor was making 30k per year while interest rates were at 20%!!! Yes, thats right...20%, and these rates lasted for years because of high inflation and government policy. Now, if you can't justify investing in these times...how can you justify investing in those economic times?
 
Yes, and 30 years ago that same condo cost 150k at 200/square foot, and an investor was making 30k per year while interest rates were at 20%!!! Yes, thats right...20%, and these rates lasted for years because of high inflation and government policy. Now, if you can't justify investing in these times...how can you justify investing in those economic times?


funny that you brought that up b/c 30 years ago was also a horrible time to invest in RE ... values dropped ~30+% in the following 3 years and a wave of defaults occurred even though mortgage interest rates were on the decline.

and those that were able to get out, many of those investors sold at substantial losses.

AFIAK $200 PSF was around 15 years ago ... 1995/1996, when mortgage rates were about 12% and dropped quickly to ~ 7% within a year, which spurred the current RE boom since then.

EDIT:
some quick numbers in 1995/96:

$200K buy 1,000 SF unit that requires 25% dp, so mortgage is $150K @ 7% 5 yr/25yr = $1,051/m, maintenance fees = $350/m, taxes = $100; insurance = $25/m

that same unit would rent for $2000/m; positive cash flow = $474/m
 
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Yes, and 30 years ago that same condo cost 150k at 200/square foot, and an investor was making 30k per year while interest rates were at 20%!!! Yes, thats right...20%, and these rates lasted for years because of high inflation and government policy. Now, if you can't justify investing in these times...how can you justify investing in those economic times?

You've made my point Max. The 20+ year bull market for bonds has made a hero out of anyone who has held income producing property over that time period for no reason other than the simple fact that 20+ years ago $1 of cash flow was worth somewhere around $10 while $1 of cash flow today may be worth $20. Add to that fixed cost of capital and some appreciation in rents and viola! Instant (if you've held on long enough) real estate millionaire.

However, in the past 7 or 8 years rents have not kept pace with inflation. The only reason why values have increased is remarkably lower interest rates and very easy access to capital in the residential market. (thanks Mr. CMHC!) What do you propose will drive values in the future with rising unemployment, enormous deficits and rock bottom interest rates?

I would be very curious to know.
 
You've made my point Max. The 20+ year bull market for bonds has made a hero out of anyone who has held income producing property over that time period for no reason other than the simple fact that 20+ years ago $1 of cash flow was worth somewhere around $10 while $1 of cash flow today may be worth $20. Add to that fixed cost of capital and some appreciation in rents and viola! Instant (if you've held on long enough) real estate millionaire.

However, in the past 7 or 8 years rents have not kept pace with inflation. The only reason why values have increased is remarkably lower interest rates and very easy access to capital in the residential market. (thanks Mr. CMHC!) What do you propose will drive values in the future with rising unemployment, enormous deficits and rock bottom interest rates?

I would be very curious to know.

How about our economy....our currency...our banks....our population growth...desire for city living...foreign investment...resources...sporting events....cultural events...job creation....diversification...infrastructure...
etc.etc. I can go on and on. While not all of these factors directly relate to RE appreciation, they create a trickle down or domino effect that carries through from the guy washing the city streets to the CEO of a huge corporation deciding to invest in our city. All the signs are pointing upwards. While I agree that a huge increase in RE values is not a good thing either, I think our current RE trend of bidding wars and such is only a temporary situation until an increase in listings in the upcoming year will start to balance things out. However I don't see a pullback or a collapse in RE, not for Toronto anyways. We are right now considered the darling of the economic world, and in my opinion I think we should milk it for all it's worth. Don't you?
 
Hi Brian,

Any relation to Ben Persaud?

I welcome your points and whole heartedly agree with your positive “long-term” view on real estate investment.

Trouble is, you’re probably wasting time debating these points on this board (although it can be fun). Most here exhibit low risk tolerance and dwell on the negatives whilst ignoring the positives. These people focus on what they think “should” happen but lose sight of what actually “is” happening.

Hmm… I wonder where most people here invest their money? If property is so bad (as usually argued), what do they deem a better investment? :)

Hi Johnzz,

No relation to Ben Persaud. Thanks for the insight on the forums

Hi Simuls,

Your steady eddy 9% is an assumption. From 1992-2004, in Toronto, housing prices appreciated 0% above the rate of inflation.

I have no idea where you got this from. I'm going to leave it you to prove it to me. I'll even give you where to find the data. Chart it yourself check out statcan. Hey you can graph it, cmhc has the info in excel format here


Be sure you are making an accurate comparison in your data. For example, if in a neighborhood they built 300 $200,000 bachy condos, that's going to drive down the average price. Baseline it against a particular housing type.

I based my steady eddy 10% on numbers from urbanation on condos. Expensive research...but its worth it.


Also, confirm what you feel the impact will be of the 15,000 units will be with some stats. According to realnet, GTA builders have had total inventories above 20,000 since they began to track the numbers in 2000

Hi safeashouses, hope your having a better day
I believe things are different today with mostly foreign buyers with different objectives. It's much harder to make money when you are investing your own capital.​

I'd like to see where you got that data..you seem so sure of foreign money. I thought this too, however, most developers I know don't see this...i haven't found anything to support this assumption. I would hazard to guess this is more true in Vancouver where the RBC affordability index shows over 70% of the average vancourites income goes towards housing (they get taxed 50%!!) based on 25% down and a 25 amortization. Mind you, most people in vancouver don't put 25% down anymore (they are bringing equity from their properties and putting large downpayments).

Generally, to those that feel rent vs price gap is too large.
I'm not comfortable basing prices of real estate based on the rents you get, some properties are in higher demand that people will pay a premium on them to purchase them. Otherwise the average 3 bedroom bungalow in Etobicoke would be worth $200,000 based on the rent it would receive. While in most cases real estate should be break even or positive cashflow, people invest for other reasons than increasing their monthly income.

We could debate this for years. I really respect people that come to a debate willing to be stretched and challenged. Their is so much conjecture, always dig deep to find the information on what's really going on.
 
What do you propose will drive values in the future with rising unemployment, enormous deficits and rock bottom interest rates?

I would be very curious to know.

I don’t think anyone’s making the argument real estate is “cheap†right now.

(Note: I personally view Toronto as fairly priced (perhaps even slightly expensive) given today’s interest rates, affordability, supply, etc…)

However, looking beyond the microcosm of Toronto real estate (and the usual variables which help determine price), I believe we’re about to be swamped by a global tsunami which could temporarily shake up the fundamentals of asset pricing.

Here’s what I feel will unfold:

As I’ve mentioned before, the value of fiat currency is dependant on the faith of those managing it and the common belief it will hold its value. Well, look around. Most central banks have printed money with reckless abandon and gold has pushed ever higher. There’s some big, BIG changes underway, make no mistake. Governments are nearly out of ammo as fiscal deficits reach record highs and the public demand fiscal restraint. What happens next year when governments stop spending? The global economy once again slips under the pressure of high unemployment, high debt levels, industrial over-capacity, decreased global trade, and continued consumer retrenchment. With fiscal stimulus no longer an option, politicians are likely to apply even greater pressure on their so called “independent†central banks to release further monetary stimulus. This will then represent the beginning of the “end gameâ€. The average person will begin to comprehend what’s going on. As central banks continue printing money and buying government debt, financial assets will depreciate at faster rates and anything “physical†will be snapped up to help preserve ones wealth (pension funds, hedge funds and even Warren Buffet have already begun this).

I’m not forecasting hyperinflation and the four horsemen. But I do see inflation pushing up to the 10% range for several years with most central banks unable to react in normal fashion (note: even the BOC will be forced to keep rates low, to help mitigate the C$ skyrocketing). Debt will erode quickly, and the global system will finally begin to stabilise (root problem, too much debt). The losers will be bond holders and those holding cash. The winners will be the debtors (whose debt depreciates in real terms) and owners of physical assets.

This will not be a smooth process mind you. Even equities will rally further (as a partial inflation hedge) but will likely experience huge intermissive sell offs.

I’m not 100% convinced this scenario unfolds, but, having derived this prognosis over time whilst working within the financial industry here in London, I think it’s most likely.

Main point:

For me, I currently feel comfortable investing in Toronto real estate, not because prices are “cheapâ€, but because prices are reasonable and the accompanied debt will likely depreciate. :)
 
Generally, to those that feel rent vs price gap is too large.
I'm not comfortable basing prices of real estate based on the rents you get,

That's where our paths diverge Mr. Persaud. Throughout my career this has been the basis for my investment decisions. If you can't accept this basic investment principal then we have little to debate.

I disagree with your assertions but respect your opinions.
 
That's where our paths diverge Mr. Persaud. Throughout my career this has been the basis for my investment decisions. If you can't accept this basic investment principal then we have little to debate.

I disagree with your assertions but respect your opinions.

Thanks safeashouses, I just wanted to clarify to you that I'm not advocating that your assertion of buying cashflow real estate is wrong..and I wish you quoted the entire sentence I wrote. What my intention is the following:

1) to think critically at the things you see, hear and read. Especially things that have no facts behind them and just based on something that seem to make sense. Look at what is happening behind the curtain
and
2) People invest in pre-construction condos for different reasons than to get a break even rental property. Not everyone does a real estate deal to make immediate monthly cashflow.
3) There are lots of fundamentals that drive real estate prices, and while the income you can get for a property is one of them...it's only one of many. Overall the fundamentals are not as bad for growth as you think.
 
I'm not sure if I also belong to the doom and gloom parade but I have certainly been consistently cautionary over the last 6 months. Like safeashouses I also have skin in the game in real estate, I would not care to post if I did not.

Since this forum tends to be largely oriented to condos and condo developments I think cautionary voices are definately needed. Personally I believe this sector in particular has huge systemic risks and stands to be particularly risky for both the small time investor and owner occupier in the event of a sudden or long period of downturn. This is because of both the nature of the type of asset and the personal position of the typical purchaser.
 

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