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Aqua (and forum groupthink)

I agree with all of the above statements, however, the majority of them still thought Aqua was #1. If we look at the winners of previous years, the buildings look pretty good. Anyone agree?
 
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^I can't I say agree. They only got the ones which were pretty much automatic.
 
What few seem to 'get' is that instead of disagreeing with the committee's choice based on the merits of the building in question, they prefer to attack the members of that body itself, declaring its selection invalid based on a set of credentials which they believe have the power to make such choices legitimate and which, unfortunately, that group lacks. It's akin to stating that Redroom's photos aren't worth posting because he Photoshops them, or that Wylie's Sketchup renderings aren't worthy of the board because they may be slightly inaccurate, or that no one understands art as Shocker does because our eyes haven't received the training that his have. Deriding a committee's 'Best Building' selection based on who comprised said committee is about as blind and baseless as arguments come.
 
I think that what has happened here is a classic case of clique-ism. I've seen it many times in many places. A group of people who have a common interest (in this case, Toronto high-rises) are engaged in a continual conversation about that topic, and eventually the more frequent posters form an "in-group" with self-perceived higher standards than those plebians not in the group. At the same time, the group's accepted opinions about whatever their common interest is, become ever more rarefied and out of touch with the mainstream views. Eventually the in-group's commonly accepted positions become so divergent from the wider norms that they conclude that they, and only they, are perceptive enough to see the truth, while everyone else is an ignorant idiot. This process seems to eventually happen all the time, whatever the common interest is.

Has anybody considered that perhaps the committee knows what they are doing? The common opinion here -- which is the opposite of almost every informed opinion I have seen elsewhere -- is that Aqua's reputation is undeserved, that it is "a box with delusions of grandeur". I think that instead of Aqua being so bad, this is a case of the UT in-group stroking their own egos by stating that they have a greater appreciation of, and knowledge of, architecture than the rest of the world does, including this committee. This type of thinking is a fairly standard example of tribalism, where some in-group, in this case the UT clique, considers itself self-evidently better than the corresponding out-group. This thinking is also seen in the way that newcomers to UT are attacked for holding opinions different than the standard UT beliefs.
 
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I think that what has happened here is a classic case of clique-ism. I've seen it many times in many places. A group of people who have a common interest (in this case, Toronto high-rises) are engaged in a continual conversation about that topic, and eventually the more frequent posters form an "in-group" with self-perceived higher standards than those plebians not in the group. At the same time, the group's accepted opinions about whatever their common interest is, become ever more rarefied and out of touch with the mainstream views. Eventually the in-group's commonly accepted positions become so divergent from the wider norms that they conclude that they, and only they, are perceptive enough to see the truth, while everyone else is an ignorant idiot. This process seems to eventually happen all the time, whatever the common interest is.

Has anybody considered that perhaps the committee knows what they are doing? The common opinion here -- which is the opposite of almost every informed opinion I have seen elsewhere -- is that Aqua's reputation is undeserved, that it is "a box with delusions of grandeur". I think that instead of Aqua being so bad, this is a case of the UT in-group stroking their own egos by stating that they have a greater appreciation of, and knowledge of, architecture than the rest of the world does, including this committee. This thinking is a fairly standard example of tribalistic thinking, where some in-group, in this case the UT clique, is self-evidently better than the corresponding out-group. This thinking is also seen in the way that newcomers to UT are attacked for holding opinions different than the standard UT beliefs.

Completely agree, about time someone said it.
 
^Add me to the AGREE WITH MONGO list. Never have truer words been spoken.

All cultures eventually devolve into the same self-pleasing, hedonistic, egoism-driven bureaucracy that exists for its own betterment and not that of the common man. Of course if we learn from history, this aristocracy always ignores the needs of the masses to its own detriment.
 
in theory this elitist behaviour does exist. I know that some people on this board are very dogmatic about what they like and dislike. I like a variety of styles. Personally I like to judge each project on its own merits, based on my own imperfect and intangible set of criteria. For the longest time I have disagreed with Shocker's strict adherence to the works of Peter Clewes and Jack Diamond. In this particular case I happen to agree with his assessment of Aqua and 1 Bloor.

For my part (and I think several others) it was just a bit of fun to mock the credentials of the Emporis team... the award given Aqua was based on subjective personal taste of 'enthusiasts' rather than peer groups or such. And so I think it's fair to question how much cache comes with winning such an award. And we of similar qualification can voice our disagreement... whats wrong with having a bit of fun at the expense of some anonymous group in the virtual world?

In any case there are different groups of 'elitists' on here that often disagree and have debates with each other. Thats part of the fun of being a member here. I disagree with a lot of what is said on here, but I dont really see that many elitists, but rather just people who are passionate about what they think and sometimes the debate evolves into various degrees of hyperbole. so what... as long as it stops short of personal attacks I think it can be quite entertaining.
 
I'm a newcomer to UT, but I've been following the thread for awhile. I agree with Redroom, it's more interesting with all the opinions and being able to poke a little fun at the same time.

I don't think Aqua should be #1. But it's an interesting building, and 1BE is taking their plans and tweaking them. I actually think 1BE looks a little better than Aqua.

As far as the judging at Emporis, does anyone remember that just a few weeks ago the Washington Post declared the ROM the ugliest building of the decade. I don't think that's even close to being true,but they must have had a committee that made that choice.
 
... as long as it stops short of personal attacks I think it can be quite entertaining.

Traynor, i would tend to think that many people might lump you into one of those elitist groups! (right or wrong...)

WTF Redroom??? Kind of a contradiction in these two posts, dontcha think?. Why did you single me out? That came out of left field. I only agreed with someone's post as did another person before me.

Never mistake Opinionated for Elitist.

Opinionated is: I have an opinion

Elitist is: My opinion is right.

I am wholeheartedly the former, never the latter.

And here I believed you when you wrote me that private message of support.

Oh well, I'm OK out here on my own anyway.

: )
 
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well, unfortunately you missed my point! I wasnt attacking you at all my friend. My point was that you seemed to be constantly under attack for having a different opinion than the 'mainstream'. I meant that it seemed to me that you were already being singled out by others and so, sort of half jokingly I was including you in the group of 'outcasts' which might likely include me too! I was quite baffled why you would applaud Mongo's post... but maybe you see it differently from your position. (that you have been attacked by elitists)
 
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This type of thinking is a fairly standard example of tribalism, where some in-group, in this case the UT clique, considers itself self-evidently better than the corresponding out-group. This thinking is also seen in the way that newcomers to UT are attacked for holding opinions different than the standard UT beliefs.

I was agreeing with this part of Mongo's post in particular. I took him to mean the Elitists on UT that are insular and self-congratulatory. Each one supporting each others' views to an extant that original thinking is no longer tolerated.

It's all good Redroom No Harm, No Foul.

Cheers!
 
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What few seem to 'get' is that instead of disagreeing with the committee's choice based on the merits of the building in question, they prefer to attack the members of that body itself, declaring its selection invalid based on a set of credentials which they believe have the power to make such choices legitimate and which, unfortunately, that group lacks. It's akin to stating that Redroom's photos aren't worth posting because he Photoshops them, or that Wylie's Sketchup renderings aren't worthy of the board because they may be slightly inaccurate, or that no one understands art as Shocker does because our eyes haven't received the training that his have. Deriding a committee's 'Best Building' selection based on who comprised said committee is about as blind and baseless as arguments come.

Nothing could be more logical than judging the judges based on who they are and what they know. Who they are as individuals, and their collective bent as a clique of editors presenting themselves as a knowledgeable elite, informs the decisions they hand down. No sensible person could object to shedding the light of day on their identities and credentials, given the amount of news coverage they've generated and how none of it names them or says what their credentials are.
 

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