Another Grass-is-Greener Everywhere Else tête-à -tête-à -tête-à -tête

[allabootmatt]

Having lived in London, England and spent a great deal of time in Paris, France, I can assure you that a large percentage of both cities look like crap. The picture postcard scenes are not representative of the whole cities, just small sections of (mainly) central districts. The same applies to many cities in the world.

This is a point worth repeating, though it doesn't excuse Toronto's neglect of its public realm. Vast stretches of London--astonishingly vast, in some cases--are truly awful. That's mostly the fault of the Luftwaffe and subsequent rebuilding, of course.

In Paris, about 12-15 (of 20) arrondissements are postcard-gorgeous, with the rest fairly unattractive. And what's outside the Periph is indeed some of the worst in Europe, with relatively few pleasant islands (Versailles being a huge exception).

Nowhere is perfect. That said, both of those cities--and New York, and San Francisco, and Vancouver, and Montreal, and so on--do a much better job than we do of taking care of what they've got.

 

[kkgg7]

No ocean or mountains in this shot. Hmmm..

Photo by Lightbox on flickr.com http://www.flickr.com/photos/47033312@N08/6768217567/lightbox/

Thanks for proving my statement.
the city in the picture can be any nondescript city in the world. I never understand why people describe Vancouver as "beautiful" or "stunning" honestly. Its architecture is even worse than Toronto.

Put any city by the Pacific with a mountain as the backdrop, it won't look bad, even Kabul or Karachi.

 

[urbandreamer]

Nonsense. Actually walking around Vancouver is very different than staring at one photograph. The best parts of Vancouver aren't even in the downtown peninsula area.

Overall, much of Vancouver's public realm compares more with the wealthier parts of Toronto--Rosedale, Forest Hill, Lawrence Park, perhaps the Beach--than your average Toronto streetscape. People take pride in landscaping there.

 

[Tewder]

This is a point worth repeating, though it doesn't excuse Toronto's neglect of its public realm. Vast stretches of London--astonishingly vast, in some cases--are truly awful. That's mostly the fault of the Luftwaffe and subsequent rebuilding, of course.

In Paris, about 12-15 (of 20) arrondissements are postcard-gorgeous, with the rest fairly unattractive. And what's outside the Periph is indeed some of the worst in Europe, with relatively few pleasant islands (Versailles being a huge exception).

Nowhere is perfect. That said, both of those cities--and New York, and San Francisco, and Vancouver, and Montreal, and so on--do a much better job than we do of taking care of what they've got.

Agreed, even in the worst of those places the condition of the streets is pretty much on par with what you'd find in many of our central areas (surface poles, broken sidewalks, graffiti etc).

As for London and Paris, it really depends which suburbs you are talking about. In Paris, the north and east sides are no-go (beyond the periph) but the south and west are not just fine but highly desireable.

 

[67Cup]

"There are plenty of things wrong with Vancouver ... but it is a gorgeous, livable, albeit too costly place to live."

... and soulless, dull, devoid of culture (here that word means the latest in yoga trends), and peopled with the coldest, most narrow-minded, uptight laid back residents in the world. Oh, and they have a Godzilla-sized bug up their ass about Toronto

--- Ex-pat Torontonian, now resident on the Wet Coast in the West End, who, after many years, can't wait to sell and move back home.

PS: Take a walk over by Granville Island sometime and look north towards downtown and False Creek, and then tell me the City didn't bugger up the sight lines and views.

Pretty close to complete nonsense, except for the bug up the ass about Toronto, which is exacerbated by meeting people, like, well, what you seem to be. Honestly, if you convey anything remotely like the attitude you radiate here, could anybody be surprised if you meet hostility???

Try not to think in empty stereotypes about "yoga" etc. There are a huge variety of interests here.

PS. Granville Island is a great place to visit. But how about you take a walk along the beaches on English Bay on a sunny day and try telling people the city is not gorgeous.

 

[officedweller]

... People take pride in landscaping there.

Agreed - a lot of the positive "public realm" aspects relate to landscaping - which, in turn, relates to climate.
Vancouver has a longer growing season and the grass and evergreen shrubs stay green throughout the winter
- so even when the street trees lose their leaves, the streetscape is often still green.

 

[gristle]

Oh, and they have a Godzilla-sized bug up their ass about Toronto

Yeah, one would think your sentiment to be hyperbole, but all one has to do is to visit and find out that it's true. Sadly, Calgary can be far worse.

Overall, much of Vancouver's public realm compares more with the wealthier parts of Toronto--Rosedale, Forest Hill, Lawrence Park, perhaps the Beach--than your average Toronto streetscape. People take pride in landscaping there.

Urbandreamer, downtown Vancouver is probably roughly the same area as the Toronto neighbourhood's you cite.

 

[Red October]

Yeah, one would think your sentiment to be hyperbole, but all one has to do is to visit and find out that it's true. Sadly, Calgary can be far worse.

The West in general is like that. They don't seem to understand that because Ontario has the highest population it gets the most amount of seats in the Senate/HOR, and that because it is the largest city it is featured the most on the news.

 

[Tewder]

Hating on Toronto is sort of a national pastime though. I don't know how legitimate the sentiment really is.

 

[bmiller]

You're right. hating Toronto is a pastime. A good portion of the people who hate Toronto have never been there. If you asked them the reason why, i'm not sure if they would have a legitimate reason.
Because, ah, it's Toronto, and ah, i was told it was a bad place, and ah, they have lots of cars and stuff, and because my mom told me so.

 

[old boy]

You're right. hating Toronto is a pastime. A good portion of the people who hate Toronto have never been there. If you asked them the reason why, i'm not sure if they would have a legitimate reason.
Because, ah, it's Toronto, and ah, i was told it was a bad place, and ah, they have lots of cars and stuff, and because my mom told me so.

Ignorance is not he sole right of the West - you see the blissful attitude right in here in Ontario.

 

[wmedia]

Hating on Toronto is sort of a national pastime though.

It was the same in the UK. Everyone outside of London hates London, especially further north. Most have never even been there!

 

[Ramako]

Ignorance is not he sole right of the West - you see the blissful attitude right in here in Ontario.

There's a lot of that out in the Maritimes too... especially in more rural areas.

 

[67Cup]

Aaaww, that's so cute, I seem to have struck a nerve ... and went and did the one thing you must never so -- apply a critical perspective towards Vancouver that goes beyond just regurgitating the same hype over and over and over again. A critical perspective, I might add, that Vancouver LOVES to apply to others but never to itself. Simply put, it can dish it out, but it can't take. You seem to be an excellent case in point. Even my Vancouver born and raised partner gets crucified by the locals for even suggesting the mildest criticism -- it's all fantastic, shut the fuck up! The group clusterfuck-think here is so boring, and therefore in my humble opinion, like no other city, in incredibly dire need of a little healthy piss-taking. Apologies, if that irritates you so.

If this place is a good fit for you, that's great. All the power you. But relax -- do we ALL have to genuflect 24/7? And empty stereotypes?? Excuse me?? my, you really have swallowed the local Kool-Aid, jug and all, haven't you? No, Vancouverites never deal in empty stereotypes, do they? God no. And dude, I live 2 minutes walk from the beaches on English Bay. Of course it's pretty. I promise I have an orgasm every time I feast my eyes upon it, blah, blah, blah, blah. Now if only the city had some grit and a pulse. But perhaps, as an obvious convert to the beyond reproach glories of Vancouver, you can do us all a favour and provide us all with some insight into that age old question -- if it's so fabulous, why are Vancouverites to transparently and conspicuously insecure?

Now off you go to the Urban Vancouver site for a little group 'tug'

So folks tell you to "shut the fuck up"... somehow I'm not surprised. I'm going to predict, however, that when you move back to Toronto, you may find people saying exactly the same thing. People do tend to carry their misery or their happiness around with them.

For the record, there are lots of problems in Vancouver and plenty of Vancouverites ready to have intelligent conversations about them, if approached courteously.

Thanks for the suggestion about the "group tug." I don't think I'll do that. Instead, I'll watch the Canucks-Leafs game... and cheer for my Leafs.

Have the last word, if you want. I'm done with you.

 

[Torontovibe]

You're right. hating Toronto is a pastime. A good portion of the people who hate Toronto have never been there. If you asked them the reason why, i'm not sure if they would have a legitimate reason.
Because, ah, it's Toronto, and ah, i was told it was a bad place, and ah, they have lots of cars and stuff, and because my mom told me so.

I've had similar encounters in Montreal, many times (when I lived there) and I've always found it quite funny, when I learned that the person had never been to Toronto. It's surprising how many Montrealers have never been to Toronto yet most everyone I know in Toronto, has been to Montreal. In fact, many people I know, go quite often.