Alto - High Speed Rail (Toronto-Quebec City)

[Northern Light]

Reece from RM Transit (I know a bit controversial but he gets his point across very succinctly) recently did a substack article on the REM and Alto and the Mont Royal tunnel, which I think is worth a read:

Alto and Mt. Royal

To Tunnel or Not to Tunnel.

nextmetro.substack.com

I think that’s a valid point, especially if ALTO and the new government is so bent on cutting project timelines controlling the overall budget, they’ll eventually have to make some tough choices.

And there are so many ways to go about this: upgrading and electrifying the current Via Rail line from Montreal to Quebec into a version of the original HFR (higher speed and higher frequency), while having the core Montreal-Ottawa-TO line as true HSR. I regularly take the Montreal - Quebec City Via Rail service - honestly it’s been quite good with the updated Siemens rolling stock, with nearly sold out trains on many weekdays, and it would most definitely increase in ridership if there’s more frequency and a slightly shorter trip time (like say 2-2.5 hrs).

And of course, there’s always the option to dig a second tunnel thru Mont Royal - not entirely unfeasible - if Quebec really pushes for the HSR option (esp given the fact the Quebec government is no stranger to spending massive amounts on other economically dubious tunneling projects like the Third Link in QC now projected to cost $7 - $9 billion for an 8 km highway tunnel…).

Its worthwhile to link to Reece's work..........but I can't say I agree with him.

i would go into that, but I'm not sure that there's great value in that as I've expressed my opinion on this issue previously.

Suffice to say, I don't this his assessment here is accurate.

 

[Transit]

See think maybe Mccowan Rd with a small indoor path bridgeto the rail line. You have line 2 and line 4 terminate there plus have room for a park and ride. Usually cities have a station on the outskirts for suburban catchment.

It's possible the hypothetical ALTO station could be in proximity to the Eglinton Crosstown-Ontario Line interchange at Don Mills and Eglinton. Particularly given that the Ontario Line will be extended north from Don Valley Station at some point.

It's also possible there will be three ALTO stations in Toronto given there will be multiple, non-competing opportunities; Line 2 and Line 4, and Eglinton Crosstown-Ontario Line, to attract customers to high-speed rail.

We'll know when ALTO chooses to tell us!

 

[micheal_can]

We'll know when ALTO chooses to tell us!

With all the conjecture in the last week or so, this statement is the most accurate statement of all.

I do wish that all government/taxpayer funded projects had regular updates informing us what they have done, what they will be doing and whether they are still on time, and if now, why.

 

[Adjei]

It's possible the hypothetical ALTO station could be in proximity to the Eglinton Crosstown-Ontario Line interchange at Don Mills and Eglinton. Particularly given that the Ontario Line will be extended north from Don Valley Station at some point.

It's also possible there will be three ALTO stations in Toronto given there will be multiple, non-competing opportunities; Line 2 and Line 4, and Eglinton Crosstown-Ontario Line, to attract customers to high-speed rail.

We'll know when ALTO chooses to tell us!

What is the need to have three ALTO stations in Toronto. This is a high speed rail line and not a GO line.

 

[Bojaxs]

It's possible the hypothetical ALTO station could be in proximity to the Eglinton Crosstown-Ontario Line interchange at Don Mills and Eglinton. Particularly given that the Ontario Line will be extended north from Don Valley Station at some point.

It's also possible there will be three ALTO stations in Toronto given there will be multiple, non-competing opportunities; Line 2 and Line 4, and Eglinton Crosstown-Ontario Line, to attract customers to high-speed rail.

We'll know when ALTO chooses to tell us!

Yeah, no!

We're not adding a HSR stop to the Eglinton Crosstown.

Go look at other countries HSR.

It's meant to be a "down town - down town" service. Not a "faster" commuter rail. HSR should be designed to compete with short distance airlines.

 

[Mihairokov]

It's meant to be a "down town - down town" service. Not a "faster" commuter rail. HSR should be designed to compete with short distance airlines.

Kind of. In cities with multiple train stations and multiple modes of trains it isn't always the case that high-speed trains travel "downtown". Generally they just get you to the city and then the rest of the system does the work getting you to where you need to go in the city. Shanghai-Beijing HSR trains only go to Beijing South Station, as that's the designated station for HSR trains going south from Beijing, as one example. If Toronto had a similar setup there would be a Toronto East HSR station for trains going to Montreal/Ottawa and a Toronto West Station for trains going to Hamilton or Kitchener or London. We don't, so we won't, but it's not automatically "downtown".

 

[McGillicuddy]

Kind of. In cities with multiple train stations and multiple modes of trains it isn't always the case that high-speed trains travel "downtown". Generally they just get you to the city and then the rest of the system does the work getting you to where you need to go in the city. Shanghai-Beijing HSR trains only go to Beijing South Station, as that's the designated station for HSR trains going south from Beijing, as one example. If Toronto had a similar setup there would be a Toronto East HSR station for trains going to Montreal/Ottawa and a Toronto West Station for trains going to Hamilton or Kitchener or London. We don't, so we won't, but it's not automatically "downtown".

Beijing South Station is a 24-platform intermodal hub designed for a capacity of 240 million passengers per year. In terms of passenger and circulation space, it is more than three times the size of (post-renovation) Toronto Union.

I really don't think you can compare it to Guildwood.

 

[SFO-YYZ]

And if the QC trip was two hours from Montreal, and ran multiple times per day, that train would be full.forget Alto, just build a regional HSR. Perhaps Ontario should do the same - Toronto to London, perhaps Windsor.

The Montreal-Quebec via rail has barely sufficient frequency today (like 5-6 trains per direction), and even now, it’s already consistently full on most trains. One can easily imagine the kind of ridership boost if they even just incrementally increase frequency and cut travel time down by say 30 min.

Alto is nice for the corridor between Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal but I feel that the smaller regional cities don’t have to be part of some “big bang” rollout, and can in the meantime be satisfied with higher frequency electrified service. This of course ain’t as sexy but HSR to the regional mayors and politicians.

 

[Northern Light]

For those suggesting no downtown stop, for Alto, that's not on. (or at least no one I talk to is taking the idea seriously).

(at Union remains the most desirable spot by far, but other options can't be ruled out entirely)

For those suggesting only a downtown stop, that's also a 'No'.

Two paths easterly from Union have been modeled out, both had Union + 2 stations before departing the GTA.

While those 2 paths vary in which 2 stations would be added, there is a general desire to connect HSR to people in the burbs who may drive to the station, or for whom downtown is not convenient start or end point.

We'll have to see how things unfold, there may yet be further refinements.

 

[nfitz]

We're not adding a HSR stop to the Eglinton Crosstown.

Go look at other countries HSR.

It's meant to be a "down town - down town" service.

Looking at other countries.

In South Korea there's 3 HSR stations in Seoul on the line from Seoul to Busan, connecting to the Seoul subway system. The line is about 430 km long, with 11 stations. Definitely not downtown to downtown.

You also get high-speed 300 km/hr commuter trains. Such as on HS1 in London where they run 4 trains per hour from St. Pancras International to Kent, with two other stations in the London area. Even the HS2 line plans to add a second station eventually at Euston - less than 6 km from Old Oak Common station.

 

[Towered]

For those suggesting no downtown stop, for Alto, that's not on. (or at least no one I talk to is taking the idea seriously).

(at Union remains the most desirable spot by far, but other options can't be ruled out entirely)

For those suggesting only a downtown stop, that's also a 'No'.

Two paths easterly from Union have been modeled out, both had Union + 2 stations before departing the GTA.

While those 2 paths vary in which 2 stations would be added, there is a general desire to connect HSR to people in the burbs who may drive to the station, or for whom downtown is not convenient start or end point.

We'll have to see how things unfold, there may yet be further refinements.

Someone here seriously advocated that the HSR line should omit downtown?? Wow.

 

[nfitz]

Someone here seriously advocated that the HSR line should omit downtown?? Wow.

That's certainly what the new Birmingham to London high speed line is doing. As far as I know, it won't even run through on regular speed lines from the more suburban terminus (I doubt there's the capacity). There's plans to extend it into Euston station (which isn't ideal, with poor connectivity) - though they announce and cancel the funding for that every 6 months or so.

 

[Mihairokov]

Beijing South Station is a 24-platform intermodal hub designed for a capacity of 240 million passengers per year. In terms of passenger and circulation space, it is more than three times the size of (post-renovation) Toronto Union.

I really don't think you can compare it to Guildwood.

The only limitation is our unwillingness to build infrastructure. Nothing you've posted disputes that neither are "downtown".

Two paths easterly from Union have been modeled out, both had Union + 2 stations before departing the GTA.

One too many, IMO. What are the stops, East Harbour and Guildwood? Oshawa?

 

[crs1026]

Not every train has to stop at every suburban station. But it makes a lot of sense to not force people to backtrack, especially when you are selling shorter trip times.
FWIW, TGV does have suburban stations outside Paris.
I am more worried about speed restrictions forcing slower speed from Agincourt thru Kennedy to Scarborough Jct.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

One too many, IMO. What are the stops, East Harbour and Guildwood? Oshawa?

Why too many - when if you look around the world, you see many more?

Obviously the fastest trains will not stop at every station. Why make it difficult to do a high speed commuter run to (say if on the Lakeshore) to Port Hope, with stops at East Harbour, Pickering, and Oshawa (for example - and approximate location-wise, not at the existing platforms).