Alto - High Speed Rail (Toronto-Quebec City)

[zang]

From what I piece together from the grapevine (and should be consumed with a grain of salt), the progress blocker is not necessarily the shed itself, but the support structures underneath the tracks, which would need to get fixed before any major modifications or upgrades like electrification can take place…

Wouldn’t a lot of that have been dealt with when the York and Bay concourses were recently done? Or would it be a potential grounding issue?

 

[ComptoirGeneral]

It would be simpler and more logical to tear down that worthless garbage. Frankly that portion of the station should be stripped of its' heritage designation. It is patently ridiculous to put in a special requirement for the trains just because of the limitations imposed by this worthless pile.

AoD

Totally agree. It should've been torn down a few years ago when they installed the modern train shed.

 

[ComptoirGeneral]

Here we go again: Heritage = what I consider pretty.

It's a one story tall steel skeleton. To call that heritage simply because it's old is crazy. Union Station itself is a heritage structure no doubt, but the train shed could be removed tomorrow and I genuinely don't think most people would notice or care if it was gone. It's actively hampering the development of this city and country.

 

[urbancog]

From what I piece together from the grapevine (and should be consumed with a grain of salt), the progress blocker is not necessarily the shed itself, but the support structures underneath the tracks, which would need to get fixed before any major modifications or upgrades like electrification can take place…

That's interesting. I think there's currently a line of columns under each of the tracks, echoed in the floor design. Metrolinx wants to change the location of some track to open up wider platforms and it could be a major challenge to structurally reinforce the roof of the concourses to distribute the load to the existing columns. Adding new columns would disrupt both the concourse and retail levels so seems out of the question.

 

[generalcanada]

That's interesting. I think there's currently a line of columns under each of the tracks, echoed in the floor design. Metrolinx wants to change the location of some track to open up wider platforms and it could be a major challenge to structurally reinforce the roof of the concourses to distribute the load to the existing columns. Adding new columns would disrupt both the concourse and retail levels so seems out of the question.
View attachment 699271

yea now this makes sense knowing mx. failure to plan in advance for this makes it very difficult to do in the future

 

[WB62]

That's interesting. I think there's currently a line of columns under each of the tracks, echoed in the floor design. Metrolinx wants to change the location of some track to open up wider platforms and it could be a major challenge to structurally reinforce the roof of the concourses to distribute the load to the existing columns. Adding new columns would disrupt both the concourse and retail levels so seems out of the question.
View attachment 699271

As far as I know (and my diagram uses a older platform reconfiguration design that might not necessarily be accurate anymore), most tracks were not going to move, tracks were going to be taken out and replaced with expanded platform space:

I can’t imagine there would need to be any additional columns for this, I’m sure a train is a lot heavier than a platform and the passengers that would use it. Reinforcement or upgrading the current columns is a different story though, one that I can’t weigh in on

 

[lenaitch]

That's interesting. I think there's currently a line of columns under each of the tracks, echoed in the floor design. Metrolinx wants to change the location of some track to open up wider platforms and it could be a major challenge to structurally reinforce the roof of the concourses to distribute the load to the existing columns. Adding new columns would disrupt both the concourse and retail levels so seems out of the question.
View attachment 699271

Any change to the shed roof (new or altered) would have to be re-engineered right down to the foundations, but I think moving tracks around would have a greater impact on loading.

I have to assume that any new shed roof would want to be long open load-carrying members.

 

[rbt]

From what I piece together from the grapevine (and should be consumed with a grain of salt), the progress blocker is not necessarily the shed itself, but the support structures underneath the tracks, which would need to get fixed before any major modifications or upgrades like electrification can take place…

I presume this is an electrolysis corrosion concern? The added weight seems negligible even for overhead rail.

 

[ssiguy2]

By population - Quebec City/region is about 1/3 bigger than London.

AoD

London is Canada's 4th busiest VIA station not Quebec. Also what do you have east of Quebec........nothing. Conversely, west of London you have Windsor which is VIA's 7th busiest station as well as Detroit across the river and connections to Chicago.

I think the first section should definitely be Mon/Ott/Tor but after that SWO/QC should BOTH be Phase 2 and if only one can be built then it should be SWO first. It simply makes the most financial and economic sense.

 

[KhalilHeron]

London is Canada's 4th busiest VIA station not Quebec. Also what do you have east of Quebec........nothing. Conversely, west of London you have Windsor which is VIA's 7th busiest station as well as Detroit across the river and connections to Chicago.

I think the first section should definitely be Mon/Ott/Tor but after that SWO/QC should BOTH be Phase 2 and if only one can be built then it should be SWO first. It simply makes the most financial and economic sense.

Yea unfortunately for Ontario the inclusion of Quebec is more political than rational. I dont see any political advocates in Hamilton, KW, London or Windsor pushing for high speed rail either. The way the London GO pilot ended without much fanfare doesn't give me hope itll happen anytime soon either.

 

[zang]

London is Canada's 4th busiest VIA station not Quebec. Also what do you have east of Quebec........nothing.

The 1.9 m people living east of Quebec City might have something to say about that.

 

[micheal_can]

London is Canada's 4th busiest VIA station not Quebec. Also what do you have east of Quebec........nothing. Conversely, west of London you have Windsor which is VIA's 7th busiest station as well as Detroit across the river and connections to Chicago.

I think the first section should definitely be Mon/Ott/Tor but after that SWO/QC should BOTH be Phase 2 and if only one can be built then it should be SWO first. It simply makes the most financial and economic sense.

Kingston is pretty high up there too, but it is being completely bypassed. ALTO is being built for 2 reasons.
1) to connect the 3 largest cities in the Corridor of Toronto, Montreal and Ottawa.
2) To politically appease Quebec.

This is not about connecting the busiest cities. This is not about connecting the largest cities either.

Now, that does not mean that one day, after parts (or all of) ALTO are constructed the HSR won't be extended or built elsewhere in Canada. Itjust means that right now the Scope is T-O-M-QC.

 

[McGillicuddy]

The 1.9 m people living east of Quebec City might have something to say about that.

It is true that there is a significant population east of Quebec City.

It is also true that this population is not arranged into the sorts of population centres you could efficiently serve with a high speed rail corridor between Quebec City and Halifax. We're talking about building 800 kilometres of high-speed track to serve Halifax, Moncton, and maybe Truro. (It may be tempting to put a station somewhere like Edmonston or Grand Falls, but these places don't have nearly the population to support it. These stops could even produce net-negative ridership: they would slow the service down and make tickets more expensive, deterring riders between other stations, while adding very few riders themselves.)

Whereas Southwestern Ontario, with just 400 kilometres of track, you can have a pick of two alignments, both of which thread together some decently large population centres. (Toronto -> Kitchener -> London -> Windsor, or Toronto -> Hamilton -> Brantford -> London -> Windsor.)

 

[McGillicuddy]

Kingston is pretty high up there too, but it is being completely bypassed. ALTO is being built for 2 reasons.
1) to connect the 3 largest cities in the Corridor of Toronto, Montreal and Ottawa.
2) To politically appease Quebec.

This is not about connecting the busiest cities. This is not about connecting the largest cities either.

Now, that does not mean that one day, after parts (or all of) ALTO are constructed the HSR won't be extended or built elsewhere in Canada. Itjust means that right now the Scope is T-O-M-QC.

3. To appease Peterborough, which is currently excluded from the rail network, and has historically been one of the flip-floppiest federal and provincial ridings.

 

[micheal_can]

It is true that there is a significant population east of Quebec City.

It is also true that this population is not arranged into the sorts of population centres you could efficiently serve with a high speed rail corridor between Quebec City and Halifax. We're talking about building 800 kilometres of high-speed track to serve Halifax, Moncton, and maybe Truro. (It may be tempting to put a station somewhere like Edmonston or Grand Falls, but these places don't have nearly the population to support it. These stops could even produce net-negative ridership: they would slow the service down and make tickets more expensive, deterring riders between other stations, while adding very few riders themselves.)

Whereas Southwestern Ontario, with just 400 kilometres of track, you can have a pick of two alignments, both of which thread together some decently large population centres. (Toronto -> Kitchener -> London -> Windsor, or Toronto -> Hamilton -> Brantford -> London -> Windsor.)

I think most on here believe that after T-QC is done the next step will be SWO, not the Maritime provinces.

3. To appease Peterborough, which is currently excluded from the rail network, and has historically been one of the flip-floppiest federal and provincial ridings.

I doubt that plays into much. I think someone looked on a map and thought that way would be the 'easiest'.