Alto - High Speed Rail (Toronto-Quebec City)

[CapitalSeven]

Perhaps Ottawa to Montreal is to be built first.

But gosh, that almost looks like they are considering two routes. One along the south side of the Ottawa River, presumably like what we'd expect. And one on the north!

No, three routes. The existing one, a diversion along the straighter CPKC right of way to the south, and the abandoned but less curvy and easier to straighten line to the north. You can see all three in this snip from OpenRailwayMap. The advantage to using one of the alternate routes is that you can build the new track while leaving existing service in place, and there is some redundancy in case of accidents or other disasters. This may just be due diligence, or not.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Looks like SWO got shafted again. From a ridership and financial point of view, HSR should go west to London before it goes east to Quebec City.

By population - Quebec City/region is about 1/3 bigger than London.

AoD

 

[Urban Sky]

I don't think I've seen this posted here before. This is a screenshot from ALTO's website. The field studies they did this year are apparently heavily concentrated between Ottawa and Montreal, while the earlier high frequency rail studies were more spread out.
View attachment 698872

This map provokes me to circle back to the evolution of the Fulda-Gerstungen HSR line (in a more detailed way than I just did for the Hanau-Fulda HSR line in the Quebec-Windsor Corridor thread), which shows how the routes of German (if not: European) HSR projects are continuously refined, whereas ALTO seems to have gone the opposite route by seemingly expanding its search area (by suddenly considering North-Shore alignments west of Montreal):

Step 1 (December 2016): defining the conceptual "search area" (December 2016)

Step 2 (February 2020): Refining the "search area" and identifying potential "connection points" with the existing HSL

Step 3 (February 2020): Identifying the various "Geographic resistance classes" within the "search area"

Step 4 (March 2020): Defining the "Broad Corridors"

Step 5 (September 2020): Drawing the "Route Corridors" and their "joint points"

Step 6 (October 2021): Identifying the "Seriously Considered Route Corridors"

Step 7 (2022): Presenting the "Preferred Route Variant"

Oh yeah, we are still talking here about a project which is scheduled to start construction in 2032 and open in 2037 (so very similar to ALTO Stage 1)...

 

[innsertnamehere]

By population - Quebec City/region is about 1/3 bigger than London.

AoD

I'm not so sure about that as hitting KWC or Hamilton on the way to London grabs a second major city on the way.

Toronto - London is only 175km or so, vs. 250 from Montreal to Quebec, and on that 175km you have Toronto, Brampton, Guelph, KWC, and London as major stops, each of which would be well served by an HSR stop and with a total catchment of about 8.2 million people. Comparatively Montreal-Quebec has only about 5.3 million. Even removing the "core" anchor city in those figures, you are looking at about 1.25 million vs. 950,000.

 

[CapitalSeven]

At the risk of reading too much into some dots on a vague map, maybe I gave too short a shrift to nfitz's remark about the north shore of the Ottawa. I drove that route from Oka to Ottawa through Gatineau this summer, and while much of it goes through villages and is a non-starter for HSR, you could construct a route along the abandoned ROW, up through Hawkesbury, Lachute and Mirabel, then down through Laval, avoiding the St. Lawrence mess altogether. They would need the postulated Central to Parc tunnel, but it would be for all trains, not just Quebec city. But all that's some pretty fantastic blue sky crayonning you need to do.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Plus how do you cross the Ottawa river in Gatineau.

 

[crs1026]

No mention of the once-landbanked ex-CPR M+O sub?

- Paul

 

[McGillicuddy]

Plus how do you cross the Ottawa river in Gatineau.

You run it east of the Rideau Canal locks, under the Plaza Bridge, and straight through the Senate chamber.

 

[treplow]

At the risk of reading too much into some dots on a vague map, maybe I gave too short a shrift to nfitz's remark about the north shore of the Ottawa. I drove that route from Oka to Ottawa through Gatineau this summer, and while much of it goes through villages and is a non-starter for HSR, you could construct a route along the abandoned ROW, up through Hawkesbury, Lachute and Mirabel, then down through Laval, avoiding the St. Lawrence mess altogether. They would need the postulated Central to Parc tunnel, but it would be for all trains, not just Quebec city. But all that's some pretty fantastic blue sky crayonning you need to do.

View attachment 698982

Is the Autoroute 50 still one lane in each direction between Mirabel and east of Gatineau, or did they finally twin it? I spent a few months shuttling between the Mt Tremblant area and Ottawa in the fall of 2013 and the single lane A50 was super dodgy to drive then.

 

[ComptoirGeneral]

Perhaps Ottawa to Montreal is to be built first.

But gosh, that almost looks like they are considering two routes. One along the south side of the Ottawa River, presumably like what we'd expect. And one on the north!

Honestly, I wouldn't be shocked to see Ottawa - Montreal constructed as phase one, then Ottawa - Toronto as phase two, followed by Montreal - Quebec City as phase three.

 

[ComptoirGeneral]

Thanks! Curious as to whether or not renovations need to be done at Union or are they looking at a development partner (Oxford) to incorporate a new section with a project.

I don't know whether major reno would be needed from a capacity standpoint, but I can't imagine that major reno would be needed to accommodate the trains themselves besides the overhead wires. But then again, that begs the question of what they'll opt to do, considering the old train shed roof is what's put the kabosh on GO electrification. I'm guessing they'll either construct the Alto platform to the east of Bay or someone will do the right thing and tear down the old train shed so both GO and Alto can proceed as they should.

 

[ericmacm]

Looks like SWO got shafted again. From a ridership and financial point of view, HSR should go west to London before it goes east to Quebec City.

IMO it makes way more sense to prioritize the core Toronto-Quebec City route in a first phase and do SWO later as an extension instead of doing it all at once. The Trudeau government had started working on some early studies for VIA HFR for SWO back in 2022 but it likely got paused when the project pivoted to Alto HSR. I would not be surprised, however, if the feds were working on new studies through the HSR lens, or potentially reusing whatever old studies (or portions of studies) that Ontario would have done during the Wynne government for that HSR proposal. In terms of some sections of the corridor, it seems like it would be relatively straightforward - VIA already owns the corridor from Windsor to Chatham, and if I am remembering correctly, the CN-owned portion of the Guelph Sub is not considered a core railway line, which could theoretically be purchased outright. That being said, there would likely need to be a new alignment constructed between London and Chatham, and the most complicated part of the whole thing would be the section around Pearson, which would potentially also require a completely new alignment in order to mesh with the long-proposed transit hub adjacent to the mouth of HWY 409.

 

[CapitalSeven]

You don't go through Gatineau or the Senate. Although some earlier studies proposed using what are now O Train tracks and across into Gatineau, that would entail a new station at what is now Bayview and scores of grade separations. I think the door is closed.

I'm talking about a route as outlined below in red dashes, using different ROWs. I think it's vanishingly unlikely. For example, I figure you would need a 3 km tunnel under Hawkesbury and the Ottawa river. At the end of the day, it's not really a longer or impossible route, assuming you can connect Gare Central to Parc with a new tunnel.

 

[CapitalSeven]

No mention of the once-landbanked ex-CPR M+O sub?

- Paul

That's exactly the route I was suggesting in the first map I put in. I think VIA bought it decades ago and then sold it just before it started to seem useful again. It's the shortest route between Ottawa and Montreal, has mostly curves of 2 or 3 km radius, and not many constraints around it. I'm sure the French engineers took one look at a railway map and said, Why not just build it here?. Of course it would have to be reexpropriated.

 

[Adjei]

I don't know whether major reno would be needed from a capacity standpoint, but I can't imagine that major reno would be needed to accommodate the trains themselves besides the overhead wires. But then again, that begs the question of what they'll opt to do, considering the old train shed roof is what's put the kabosh on GO electrification. I'm guessing they'll either construct the Alto platform to the east of Bay or someone will do the right thing and tear down the old train shed so both GO and Alto can proceed as they should.

Yes hope this project is the catalyst to tear down that old clunker.