Alto - High Speed Rail (Toronto-Quebec City)

[bearcat]

Why would anyone take VIA from Union to Montreal when you can do the same with HSR?

Well depends on the price of HSR. If they make the current service much cheaper I think a lot of people will take it.

 

[zang]

Why would anyone take VIA from Union to Montreal when you can do the same with HSR?

But someone might take union to Belleville, or Kingston to Cornwall.

Any HSR should be treated as an express. Fewer stops than the regular VIA route; leave that for connections to the smaller towns.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Any HSR should be treated as an express. Fewer stops than the regular VIA route; leave that for connections to the smaller towns.

If we had dedicated tracks couldn’t the existing 200 kph capable Siemens Charger units fill this need?

 

[micheal_can]

If we had dedicated tracks couldn’t the existing 200 kph capable Siemens Charger units fill this need?

Not if your goal is 300km/hr.

 

[bearcat]

If we had dedicated tracks couldn’t the existing 200 kph capable Siemens Charger units fill this need?

Dedicated tracks where? Which need? The current VIA route from Toronto to Montreal and the HSR route don't really overlap.

 

[chrisw]

Making the transfer at Union to UP more seemless could be another way to serve Pearson without spending money. At the same time UP will need to be upgraded within 15 years?

 

[nfitz]

Any HSR should be treated as an express. Fewer stops than the regular VIA route; leave that for connections to the smaller towns.

In much of the world, stops are pretty mixed on high-speed trains. Some do the whole thing with none or just one stop. Others stop in more places. And if the entry into the city is done well, some places operate HST commuter services on their HSR. Not so much the last-century designs where you primarily build the HSR alignment outside of the city, and run relatively slower entering major cities and gares.

 

[CapitalSeven]

I don't think I've seen a reference to this recent video by Lucid Stew about the route. It's fun and highly visual, going over his interpretation of the Alstom proposal that came out a couple of years back. He does a lot of calculations about the travel times. Others with greater technical knowledge will no doubt have some quibbles and insights. One thing that disappointed me is that he suggests he's going to get into some detail about alternatives and fixing the Havelock problem with a greenfield route. He concludes most of this will be replaced due to the timing math but there is no detail, just this vague map.

To me it looks like the Gatineau and then another hydro corridor, then something along and around highway 7 (which is an off the wall theoretical route I had fun with), probably the most direct path but pretty expensive and full of physical and jurisdictional obstacles. ALTO however has said they are looking at all sorts of options. Stew does get into tilting vs. non-tilting, and I suppose this is tied up with the route selection as a trade-off.

Stew is an American, and while he seems to have a good grasp of what he's talking about, the lack of regional knowledge comes through. The idea of stations in Peterborough, Dorval, and Quebec City's airport is sort of glossed over without any consideration of the role they play in transportation, but of course you can't do everything in a video of this length (this film has 22 minutes).

 

[Metroscapes]

What point are you trying to make with regards to Summerhill which I haven’t already addressed below?

I'm only making a point that there's enough about it that it makes sense to some people, even if not many of them are here on UT, and even if that still makes it wrong.

In a hand-wavy sense on forums it has. The primary issue is the TTC Yonge line (or University line for that matter) cannot add a non-trivial number of transfers from a Summerhill (or Dupont) stop. Eglinton and St. Clair transfers already fill peak-direction rush-hour TTC trains; and those are exactly the trains a mid-town user would be looking to catch.

Realistically, for a mid-town line to feed office workers into downtown at even 10% of Union's capacity [anything less is not providing Union relief] will require something like a Bay subway line to be built.

Is that factoring in the Ontario Line though? I vaguely recall Relief Line projections greatly reducing overcrowding issues, but I'm not bothering to dig it up because I don't want it to seem like I'm advocating for Summerhill to be taken too seriously.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Making the transfer at Union to UP more seemless could be another way to serve Pearson without spending money. At the same time UP will need to be upgraded within 15 years?

But it might be worth running it up Pearson if your ultimate intention is to extent it further down Southern Ontario anyways.

AoD

 

[crs1026]

I'm only making a point that there's enough about it that it makes sense to some people, even if not many of them are here on UT, and even if that still makes it wrong.

The route is certainly "feasible", but the questions that I would ask are

- If the intent is "relief".... what is it relieving and when will that need actually emerge? (Union station is not projected to run out of capacity for 20 years or more)
- What existing or planned GO or VIA route would benefit more by being routed to North Toronto as opposed to Union? How realistic is it to think that any existing route would benefit from an interleaved service where some trains branch to NT and others to Union?
- Is the intent to merely connect from the west (very doable), or across Toronto with a connection to the east (Very expensive, given bridges required) ?
- Where does this sit in the funding queue compared to the many other projects that are proposed?

Certainly, we can debate and design it on paper, but that doesn't mean it will happen. I remain convinced that this project will remain a bridesmaid, not a bride - at least in my lifetime.

- Paul

 

[reinventingthewheel]

Is that factoring in the Ontario Line though? I vaguely recall Relief Line projections greatly reducing overcrowding issues, but I'm not bothering to dig it up because I don't want it to seem like I'm advocating for Summerhill to be taken too seriously.

It will free up enough capacity to extend the line north to Richmond Hill. Any more capacity will only support future growth in density along the route.

Summerhill is a *neat* idea. But from ALTOs perspective of an already risky business venture it’s Union station or bust – even if it costs an extra couple billion to make it work.

 

[Urban Sky]

Trudeau/Dorval airport in Montreal will definitely have integration, but Pearson is an long way for anyone east of Peterborough and nobody west of Oshawa will take infrequent HSR (compared to GO service) to get to Pearson. There is lots of spare capacity at Trudeau for additional flights.

You are assuming that Trudeau offers the same variety of flights as Pearson, when in reality, many Carribean or Central/Southern American destinations are much better connected from YYZ than YUL. Therefore, nobody is going to take the train from Peterborough or Ottawa to Dorval, just to fly and transfer at YYZ, but they very well take a direct train to Pearson, as they seek to minimize the total travel time and the number of transfers rather than just the travel time on the train. Also, 30-60 minutes is a normal frequency for airport shuttles, as passengers are much more tolerable of additional waiting times for the 1-2 leisure flights they do per year than for the 2-5 commutes they do to their office each week.

But it might be worth running it up Pearson if your ultimate intention is to extent it further down Southern Ontario anyways.

AoD

There are also other considerations: given the intense pressure to minimize dwell times at Union Station, extending the services to Pearson would increase the throughput at Union Station.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Well depends on the price of HSR. If they make the current service much cheaper I think a lot of people will take it.

I don't know if the price (for regular class) would be so different as to make the case for it.

AoD

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

There are also other considerations: given the intense pressure to minimize dwell times at Union Station, extending the services to Pearson would increase the throughput at Union Station.

In fact if HSR does happen and we get it to Pearson, we can scrap the UP.

AoD