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Agents, Brokers and others on the inside: Give us some facts!

The Condo Observer

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I had the most depressing chat with my former broker today. He did not paint a rosy picture of the months ahead. He is advising sellers to hold , unless in distress, and sees another major "Structural" adjustment downwards, before things start levelling off. He also quoted some dismal sales stats. His major concern is that those whose retirements were tied to their stock portfolios, will have to dip into their last remaining asset - their home, in order to support their lives. He thinks those with cash should wait until April before investing in anything.
 
And we need financial people to confirm this....? The economic melt-down that is occurring is a once in a generation event. This is unprecedented. One need only watch the daily news. Real estate agents, God bless'em. They can see the silver lining in anything, usually. It will be worse in the spring, when the market is going to be flooded with homes. I see the downtown condo market suffering. The investors will be jumping like rats from a sinking ship. Coupled with the huge amount of inventory (pre-construction) that will be coming on-stream, and you have a very dire situation, indeed. Let us hope for the best. Economic stimulus, anyone....?
 
Economic stimilus is actually the opposite of what we need.

The world has had unprecented growth for the past decade based on cheap credit for all ... buy, buy, buy was the matra.

Look almost anywhere in the world and you will see how ridiculously high RE values became. Although Toronto may not have had 25%, 50%, etc appreciation any one year; it has increased at least 100% - 150% in some areas in the past 12 years.

My first interest in RE was in 1996 and the Richmond condo by Tridel was selling for under $200 PSF. Those same units go for ~$400 PSF now; and many newer buildings in the area sell for $450 PSF.

Historically, yes RE values go up but on average it tends to follow certain trends which is follow inflation + a little bit (i.e. values double approx every 18 years).

Throughout history, there has always been immigration and shortage of land (areas that were far were undesirable, farmlands that were not intended for residential construction, etc) so the typical RE agent explanation IMO is BS.
 
This is taken from a Remax Agent's website.

http://www.remaxcondosplus.com/condo-market-report.7.php

Interesting to read the reports going back several years.

----------------------------------------------


CONDO MARKET REPORT

NOVEMBER/DECEMBER 2008

Sales Commentary:
Last month, we spent the entire Report trying to educate the public on how the real estate market operates. It did not seem to have much effect as the rest of the Media was intent on doing the 'Chicken Little' thing and the public bought in! So let's go back to reporting the Stats.
Residential sales in October suffered their biggest single month decline this year over '07; down 35%. The 416 area code was worse, down by 38%. In terms of condos, the overall market was off 25%, but Downtown, where condo activity is stronger, sales were down more, to 32% from the same month a year ago. There is no doubt the New City Land Transfer Tax introduced in 2008 pushed forward sales into late 2007 and this also had a negative impact on this year's sales. Only the politicians who imposed the tax seem surprised! But the telling signal for Downtown Condos is that the sale-to-listing ratio which last year stood at 65% (a sellers' market) is now at 25% (a buyers' market). But before anyone thinks that everything is being sold at fire sale prices, the sale price to list price ratio for condos selling is still at 98%. What is happening is that sellers either get their price or their properties just don't sell.
Going forward, we cannot emphasize enough that 'market timing' never works. Sellers who were waiting for the top of the market missed it six months ago. So if you don't have to sell now, take your property of the market and wait! Buyers who think that the market will be even softer in six months are also in for a surprise. The long term fundamentals of the condo market are extremely positive and all of the bad economic news has already been factored into this market. The best time for buyers is now when there is so much product available. Wait a year and you will be back in the herd, running after listings with multiple offers.
So let's look at today's real estate prices by tracking some sales at the Waterview condos �" 2119 and 2121 Lake Shore Blvd. on the Etobicoke waterfront. The first unit we tracked was a two-bedroom with parking at 1550 sq.ft. With upgrades and great water and city view, it sold in December of 2006 for $570,000. The same unit sold again in May of this year for $590,000. Two things to note: at $380 per sq.ft, the price is reasonable and in fact is lower than comparable new developments. Secondly there was no drop in price in 2008. To further prove this point, we looked at two other smaller units in the same complex. The first, a bachelor sold in 2007 for $155,000 and then again in 2008 for $169,000. The second, a one-bedroom sold in September of 2007 for $225,000 and again in May of 2008 for $237,000! So why are average prices down in 2008? As we explained in our last Report, the mix of sales has changed dramatically from 2007 to 2008 �" less of the expensive properties and more of the cheaper units are now selling in 2008. That will produce a drop in the published average price, even when individual properties are actually increasing in price! In this market there is no doubt that some properties have declined in price but there are plenty of examples of properties increasing in price too!


Rental Commentary:
The rental market remained strong in October with over 150 one-bedroom units leased. The most popular type was a one plus den with parking that averaged just under $1700. The entry level Bachelor without parking averaged $1200. There were 90 two-bedroom units leased. Two-bedroom prices averaged $2340 with parking and a den, down to $2000 for units without parking or a den. The average days-on-market for one-bedrooms was 12-14, while two-bedrooms took 17-20 days to lease up. This is usually the slowest rental period of the year but it is pretty clear what is happening. As more people decide to rent (and wait to buy later), the result has been increased rental prices of $100-150 per month.
 
CONDO MARKET REPORT

NOVEMBER/DECEMBER 2008

Sales Commentary:
[...] So let's look at today's real estate prices by tracking some sales at the Waterview condos �" 2119 and 2121 Lake Shore Blvd. on the Etobicoke waterfront. The first unit we tracked was a two-bedroom with parking at 1550 sq.ft. With upgrades and great water and city view, it sold in December of 2006 for $570,000. The same unit sold again in May of this year for $590,000. Two things to note: at $380 per sq.ft, the price is reasonable and in fact is lower than comparable new developments. Secondly there was no drop in price in 2008. To further prove this point, we looked at two other smaller units in the same complex. The first, a bachelor sold in 2007 for $155,000 and then again in 2008 for $169,000. The second, a one-bedroom sold in September of 2007 for $225,000 and again in May of 2008 for $237,000! So why are average prices down in 2008? As we explained in our last Report, the mix of sales has changed dramatically from 2007 to 2008 �" less of the expensive properties and more of the cheaper units are now selling in 2008. That will produce a drop in the published average price, even when individual properties are actually increasing in price! In this market there is no doubt that some properties have declined in price but there are plenty of examples of properties increasing in price too!

I note that they're using May 2008 as their comparative date. But, wasn't May the very, very, very start of the housing downturn here in Canada? At that point it still didn't seem like anything was really happening...
 
... Going forward, we cannot emphasize enough that 'market timing' never works. Sellers who were waiting for the top of the market missed it six months ago. So if you don't have to sell now, take your property of the market and wait! Buyers who think that the market will be even softer in six months are also in for a surprise. ...

A good commentary!

A few people here will immediately dismiss it because it comes from a real estate agent. But he has done some homework and presents numbers involving real sales.

People who try ti "time" the market are making a very fundamental error. You can't identify the top of the market or the bottom of the market until it has passed, probably by several months.
 
A good commentary!

A few people here will immediately dismiss it because it comes from a real estate agent. But he has done some homework and presents numbers involving real sales.

People who try ti "time" the market are making a very fundamental error. You can't identify the top of the market or the bottom of the market until it has passed, probably by several months.


True, but to recommend now is a good time to buy when prices are only six months from the peak of the market is ridiculous.

Anyone who has followed RE trends knows the market does not follow a V shape, so a seller's market is not happening anytime soon.
 
Pulled this from the Globe and Mail, which illustrates why I believe Canada has it's own version of US Adjustable Rate Mortgages, that has contributed to the RE and financial meltdown.

Family income: 75K
50K after tax, 4167 monthly.
Mortgage 250K
@5% = 12.5K/yr or 1042/mo
@8% = 20K/yr or 1667/mo
And that is just interest.
How many people can afford the six hundred dollar a month hit?
How many households are set up for that kind of shock?

Interest rates will go up.
And shake everybody out who had to buy a house with the skin of their teeth.
 
Pulled this from the Globe and Mail, which illustrates why I believe Canada has it's own version of US Adjustable Rate Mortgages, that has contributed to the RE and financial meltdown.

Family income: 75K
50K after tax, 4167 monthly.
Mortgage 250K
@5% = 12.5K/yr or 1042/mo
@8% = 20K/yr or 1667/mo
And that is just interest.
How many people can afford the six hundred dollar a month hit?
How many households are set up for that kind of shock?

Interest rates will go up.
And shake everybody out who had to buy a house with the skin of their teeth.

Yeah...interest rates are really going up (sarcasm)! Mine just got adjusted on December 1st to 3.4 %...haha
 
5 years and 25 years...why? If you're going to explain to me what is going to happen when it comes time for me to re-new....save your breath, I've heard it all before!



Nope, I'm not worried about you if you did 5 / 25 years.

You should be okay, it's the ones who did 0-5% downpayment and 40 year amortization that will be in trouble because after the 5 year term, they will have only decreased their prinicpal by 3.5%.

Any downpayment will most likely be wiped out in the market correction over the next 5 years when the term comes up for renewal putting one in a precarious situation.
 
My last two articles have been linked in other threads on UT already, but just in case you haven't seen them already:

October Condo stats and analysis

November Condo Stats and Analysis

In short, it is not a good time to be a seller. If you don't absolutely have to sell, don't. It is a good time to be a buyer, but the question is, will it be better to be a buyer in the months and seasons ahead?
 
My last two articles have been linked in other threads on UT already, but just in case you haven't seen them already:

October Condo stats and analysis

November Condo Stats and Analysis

In short, it is not a good time to be a seller. If you don't absolutely have to sell, don't. It is a good time to be a buyer, but the question is, will it be better to be a buyer in the months and seasons ahead?

Its this expectation that things will be cheaper going forward that will contribute to the slowdown in sales NOW. But can you blame any rational buyer in this uncertain market, in the slow winter months?
 
My last two articles have been linked in other threads on UT already, but just in case you haven't seen them already:

October Condo stats and analysis

November Condo Stats and Analysis

In short, it is not a good time to be a seller. If you don't absolutely have to sell, don't. It is a good time to be a buyer, but the question is, will it be better to be a buyer in the months and seasons ahead?

yes. buy buy buy, then watch your asset go down down down.
 

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