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Afghanistan debate (Hillier, new troops)

Iran is still a democracy as in the next election the current nutcase leader has a good chance of being voted out of office.

What this shows is that they are a decently developed society and that most likely they can be reasoned with. :cool:


The next decade is mostly going to about Pakistan and China, US and Russia playing the great game in central Asia.
Russia will try to flex its muscle over its former lands, China will just try to increase their power and the US-NATO do not want Islamic extremism spreading across that region.
 
This article perhaps helps to explain why those of us in the military, security/intelligence establishment, the NGO and development sectors, etc. all 'believe' in the mission.

PUBLICATION: The Ottawa Citizen
DATE: 2009.04.09
EDITION: Final
SECTION: News
PAGE: A14
COLUMN: Licia Corbella
BYLINE: Licia Corbella
SOURCE: The Calgary Herald
WORD COUNT: 753

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What we're fighting for

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Every day when I come in to work and hang my coat on the hook behind the door of my office, I'm reminded of why Canada has troops in Afghanistan.

Hanging on that same hook is a burka. The sky-blue rayon fabric with its elaborate pleating, machine embroidery and mesh that covers the eyes, is a reminder to me of the suffocating oppression the women of Afghanistan suffered through under Taliban rule, but also of the amazing women and girls I met when I spent two weeks there in December, 2003.

Earlier this week, news broke that Afghanistan President Hamid Karzai has betrayed the Shia women of his country by signing a law that will force the women of this minority to seek permission from their husbands before leaving their home. The law would also mean that only fathers and grandfathers could gain custody of children and that women could never deny sex to their husbands. As a result of this atrocious news, Canadians are rightly asking, what are we fighting for? Why are we there?

The best way I know to answer that question is by changing it to 'WHO are we fighting for?'

Let me introduce you to Sabria Boostani and her daughter Tahmina, who was 14 when I met her, but would be 20 now. In the courtyard of the small Kabul orphanage she ran with little resources, but a lot of love and patience, Sabria told me a hair-raising story of the Taliban's murderous ways.

On Aug. 29, 1999, Sabria was in her comfortable house in a good neighbourhood of Kabul along with her husband, their 24-year-old son and Tahmina, who was then 10 years old.

The Taliban, which means religious students, were in control of most of the country, which meant Sabria, an active, educated teacher, was essentially under house arrest for years, venturing out only with a male relative, and only under the cover of the tent-like burka that is still the predominant form of covering for women throughout Afghanistan.

Her daughter, like all girls, was no longer allowed to go to school, so Sabria secretly taught her all she could. Life was not pleasant, but it was soon to get much worse.

"At about 2 o'clock in the afternoon, two Taliban kicked in our front door," said the then 44-year-old woman, who looked more like she was 64. "They started to beat us and curse us and they locked us all in a room, and then they just shot my husband and my son in front of me and my daughter." Sabria said she and her daughter sat clutching one another, scarcely breathing until morning, unable to move.

"The next morning, my hair was white and my daughter couldn't speak for many, many days -- more than one week," she explained of the extreme trauma they suffered.

Why did the Taliban murder her husband and son? Sabria can only speculate.

"My husband and son were physicians and helped anyone who needed help, even women, which the Taliban did not allow. Maybe that's why. But really, the Taliban hate any educated people. They wanted to keep people as ignorant as possible. It was the only way for them to keep power."

When I met her, Sabria was teaching school to 21 girls at the Mirmum Orphanage in Kabul, which our Canadian soldiers stumbled upon and then took under their wing.

"I live my life only for my daughter now, to support her," explained Sabria, "but I am dead, though I walk and talk."

If Afghanistan is not a country entirely filled with dead men and women walking, then it certainly is a country of the walking wounded.

Virtually every Afghan who didn't flee this landlocked country during the Taliban's rule, which ran from September, 1996 to November, 2001, has lived through trauma few of us can comprehend. And, of course, before the Taliban, there was war -- altogether, 23 years of it.

So, while Sabria barely could find the will to live, she said the kindness in the form of smiles, food, fuel, bedding, school supplies and repairs shown to her and the children by Canadian troops, as well as the lifting of Taliban rule from many parts of the country, gave her and the dozens of other women I met in Afghanistan much hope.

The reason why our brave soldiers "believe" in the mission they're on and why families of the 116 Canadian soldiers who have given their lives in that brutal country say so too, is because our soldiers have all met people like Sabria and Tahmina -- millions of them -- who have suffered so much and deserve so much more. That's who and what we're fighting for. They're worth it. They really are.

Licia Corbella is the Calgary Herald's editorial pages editor.
 
Except that's not the reason - as noble as it is. That's the explaination used to sell the mission, but like I have mentioned before - we are there because we have a security interest which in this case so happens to align with our humanitarian values. If it was the latter alone, we wouldn't have been there.

I am curious as to how many Afghan refugees Canada and other involved powers have accepted since the start of the military campaign.

AoD
 
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AlvinofDiaspar said:
Except that's not the reason - as noble as it is. That's the explaination used to sell the mission, but like I have mentioned before - we are there because we have a security interest which in this case so happens to align with our humanitarian values. If it was the latter alone, we wouldn't have been there.
Click to expand...

I accept that. All I was saying is that this is what motivates those of us who are involved in this mission. There is sometimes a perception (for example by certain trolls in this thread) that all we want to do is blow shyte up and kill people in Afghanistan. And the public too often seems confused by why soldiers seem so motivated to be involved in the mission. I would love for them to understand that what they see for two minutes on the news is what every service person in Afghanistan is inundated with everyday for 6 months. We see the crushing poverty, cities that have so much destruction that it's hard to even put in words, the fear in people's eyes when they discuss the Taliban, etc. That's what motivates those guys at the pointy end to go out the door and risk their lives day after day. It deeply concerns me when some in our society see that kind of motivation as psychopathic warmongering.

AlvinofDiaspar said:
I am curious as to how many Afghan refugees Canada and other involved powers have accepted since the start of the military campaign.

AoD
Click to expand...

They are actually trying to resettle Afghans again in the regions that are secure (the north for example). And Afghans are starting to return on their own. Kabul's population has swelled to 5 million (the city was designed for 1 million residents). But there's a million Afghan refugees in Pakistan and a significant but smaller number in Iran.

The refugee problem is one that's being studied right now. I don't know how many would want to move to Canada. That would be quite a shock for them. I am sure the middle classes would prefer it. But there's probably very few of those around. Those who are middle class professionals who are in Afghanistan these days are probably there out of their volition....volunteering, re-settling, etc. Most regular Afghans seem to want to prefer to move back rather than migrate to the west. Problems are coming though. A lot of today's Afghan refugees were born in Pakistan, have grown up there their whole lives, picked up Urdu, etc. They have no real motivation to move back but the Pakistani government won't let them stay because of the social and economic implications of having these refugees.
 
Here's a look at Canada and its military by the numbers. (cbc.ca)

Population

* Today: 33,143,610 (2008 estimation)
* Second World War: 11,507,000 (1941 census)
* First World War: 7,207,000 (1911 census)

Land

* Canada occupies 9,093,507 sq km, making it the second largest country in the world after Russia.
* Canada has 243,791 km of coastline and 8,893 km of borders.

Military expenditure

* Canada's defence budget for 2008: $18.2 billion.
* Promised budget boost: $12 billion over 20 years beginning in 2011-12.

Armed Forces

* Today: 62,000 military personnel including 9,000 sailors, 19,500 soldiers, 12,500 air force personnel and 20,000 administrative and support personnel. There are also about 25,000 reservists.
* Second World War: 60,000 men and women enlisted in Canada's armed forces in one month (September 1939) after the declaration of war.
* First World War: More than 600,000 Canadians enlisted to fight in the First World War from 1914-1918.

Navy

* Today: There are 33 surface ships, four submarines and 9,000 sailors in Canada's navy.
* Second World War: At the end of the war, Canada had the third-largest fleet in the world, after the U.S. and the U.K. 23 Canadian ships were sunk by German U-Boats in the Battle of St. Lawrence alone.
* First World War: During the course of the First World War, Canada's naval service grew to a force of 9,000 men and 100 ships.

Canadians on the front lines

* Today: More than 2,900 members of the Armed Forces are deployed overseas.
* Second World War: More than one million served and approximately 45,000 died.
* First World War: Almost 620,000 Canadians served in First World War and 66,000 died.
* Canada in NATO: Of NATO's 26 member countries, Canada is...First in land area (9,093,507 sq. km), and sixth in total military spending ($13 billion)


6th!!
All that cash and look where we are. Think of all the cash that will be required to pick up all the pieces, to deal with the madness that lingers once this Afghanistan invasion if over. The one good thing from this data is that it appears over time people step up to the plate when required to do so.
 
We are 6th in large part because we pay our military personnel reasonably well. That and given the size of our land mass and coastline and climate we usually need large, rugged equipment. Moreover, the absolute value does not account for purchase power parity. The Indians spend close to what we do and get a million man army. It's cheap of course to buy your Army in Rupees. Taken as a percentage if GDP we are pretty middle of the road. Note that the military baseline increase has nothing to do with Afghanistan. Defence budgets are only now recovering to the levels of the 90's and that does not account for inflation. Thankfully, both major parties support the budget increase.
 
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It is unfortunate that this chaplain and his bible study group chose to do what they did and I am sure violated several standing policies and orders.

No it's not something Canadians approve off and its not an action that Canadians would undertake. The CF deploys Muslim Chaplains to help distribute Korans and help build relations with Afghans, and it was the first military organization in Afghanistan to do so, a fact that us Canadians are quite proud of.

Jade_lee's guilt by association efforts are not relevant here.
 
Each time I watch that video I notice something else.
"The Word and the Warriors" Hughes
 
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From the globe

"Mr. Harper was immediately whisked into a new Chinook helicopter to view the Dahla dam, Canada's $50-million signature aid project located 37 kilometres northeast of the Kandahar base, which he said will provide drinking water to much of the region."

Sad that water was a target of war there in Afghanistan.

""He called the dam an example of the refocusing of the Canadian mission from combat to aid and development."

Aid and development was the original goal prior to 2006 or so the government prior said.

"An injection of thousands of U.S. soldiers into Afghanistan will help Canada refocus on reconstruction and other aid projects, Prime Minister Stephen Harper said during a surprise visit to the war-ravaged country."

True enough. The current 38,000 American troops was and is ridiculous when you consider prior occupations and wars there.

“We're moving to a mission with better defined civilian objectives,†he said in his remarks to soldiers, many of whom sipped Ice Caps from the Tim Hortons on the base. “… That really is where the future of the mission is going.â€

"He said Canada's civilian contingent has doubled over the past year to nearly 100. This includes Foreign Affairs officials, Canadian International Development Agency personnel and RCMP and correctional services officers."

CIDA works with organizations that employ 1,300 aid workers in Kandahar province.

"This was the Prime Minister's third visit to the southern Afghanistan airbase, the largest NATO base in the world. On previous trips, he went to battlefield positions, speaking forcefully of his government's commitment to the military action to defeat the Taliban."

"Three years ago, he boldly told troops Canada “would not cut and run.†He continued the hawkish tone in a visit to Kabul in May, 2007, before Parliament voted to extend the mission to 2011."

“There are still the remnants of terrorism, and if you leave with the job half done … they will re-emerge to haunt you at home,†he said.

I guess the Canadian public changed his mind on that.

Good to see Harper serving coffee like his minister of defense did for the troops.
Good to see Harpers war rhetoric toned down.
Great when our troops come home.
I wonder if this governments 20 year financial commitment to our military spending will also be toned down in light of the fact that many Canadian families will require a cash bailout in terms of EI reform and losses of pension security.
 
^ One would hope that Canadian families are not going to be reliant on EI beyond the economic downturn....and hopefully not to the extent that it would derail the long term plans of the government in any sector.

Defence policy like every other area of government is often made with a time frame that's longer than the current government. The current policy is largely a rehash of Liberal commitments with a few they could not stomach (C-17, Chinooks, etc.) Given that all the hard purchasing decisions have been made for the next Liberal government, I have a feeling there will not be much change in defence policy when Ignatieff takes the reins eventually.

As for the focus on aid, it's been there all along. Too bad the media did a piss poor job of covering it. And although you might not think the Dahla dam is important, the fact that the Taliban have tried repeatedly to destroy it, prevent its construction, prevent the distribution of the power that's generated should tell you something. That dam has significantly improved the lives of millions in southern Afghanistan by providing reliable sources of water and electricity....and it was an initiative largely assisted and driven by military types on the ground...and with a lot of effort by Canadian military personnel.
 
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