A Heritage Victorian House v.s. buying a condo in Downtown??!!

[azureray]

guys...I know these are totally different life-styles, but like many, I also happen to love both, the traditional English style living in a heritage victorian semi-detached home, and a new build condo.

A 900 sq.ft 1+1 condo with great finishes in King West Village will cost about 500K. Plus monthly maintence $600.

A beautiful victorian heritage home (built in 1882) in downtown core will cost 700K.

Just want to know your guys opinion on which one is better for investment?

 

[Blovertis]

The house for sure:

1. They don't make Victorians any more.
2. You get land.
3. You have complete control over design and maintenance.

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

If I didn't buy a condo I'd never buy a semi or town home, freehold only but that's just me.
If your considering the house have an accredited home inspector check it out carefully from top to bottom and hope for the best. Also figure what your expenses for the house will be over a span of five years, an older home could be an expensive proposition let alone a 130 year old property.

 

[TonyV]

We are property owners: a very small "cottage" in Cabbagetown, in the Parliament / Carlton area. Generally it is a lovely "lifestyle" (I detest that word) but it can be a lot of work. Our place is 140 + years old and the various owners that came before us each left their individual touches on the place, not all to good effect. Maintenance is to be considered. And yes, while you get land when you buy a house, you are still restricted with what you can do.

Not all of our neighbours are respectful of the 'quiet enjoyment' thing, one woman who lives in an adjacent house leaves her dogs out all night ... there are just as many inconveniences as living in a condo, to be truthful. But I couldn't give up my tiny and lovely patch of greenery. It is not a "back yard", it is more like a "side court", but it's heaven in summertime, beats a balcony.

Bottom line: in the purchase of an old house, make sure to hire a reputable inspector. You've already been given this advice but it bears repeating.

 

[UserNameToronto]

guys...I know these are totally different life-styles, but like many, I also happen to love both, the traditional English style living in a heritage victorian semi-detached home, and a new build condo.

A 900 sq.ft 1+1 condo with great finishes in King West Village will cost about 500K. Plus monthly maintence $600.

A beautiful victorian heritage home (built in 1882) in downtown core will cost 700K.

Just want to know your guys opinion on which one is better for investment?

We asked this question to ourselves about 3 years ago. We were comparing $350K 1000sqft 2-bedroom condos to $400K 1200sqft houses in the downtown east (Corktown/Cabbagetown) and the near east end (Riverside/Leslieville/East Chinatown).

I disagree that a downtown Victorian will cost $700K - ours was in the low $400Ks and would go for about $500K today. 1880s, 1200sqft, semi, less than 25 minute walk to King & Bay. Highly recommended.

 

[UserNameToronto]

If I didn't buy a condo I'd never buy a semi or town home, freehold only but that's just me.

A semi, townhouse or rowhouse is usually freehold.

Do you mean detached? Not many of those downtown.

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

A semi, townhouse or rowhouse is usually freehold.

Do you mean detached? Not many of those downtown.

Indeed, I meant detached. Thanks!

My ex & I were thinking of getting out of condo living & buying a detached house south of Bloor, between roughly Don Valley & Bathurst. There are detached homes but you are correct, there are many more semi's & town homes in this general area. We looked at a few detached homes that were in our price range but for one reason or another they didn't work for us so we ended up buying another condo.

 

[UserNameToronto]

Indeed, I meant detached. Thanks!

My ex & I were thinking of getting out of condo living & buying a detached house south of Bloor, between roughly Don Valley & Bathurst. There are detached homes but you are correct, there are many more semi's & town homes in this general area. We looked at a few detached homes that were in our price range but for one reason or another they didn't work for us so we ended up buying another condo.

Why detached only? Isn't a condo essentially an "attached" structure, potentially with more than 2 neighbours?

I'd gladly make our semi into a rowhouse, if only for the energy savings and extra 8 inches of room!

 

[Urban Shocker]

Rowhouses - the one azureray is considering buying, for instance - are fairly uncommon in our city, and early examples like this one are mostly small and working class. It wasn't a residential form offered here on a large scale by developers - unlike in London, where a network of streets and squares consisting of elegant Georgian rowhouses and imposing Victorian terraces was built, or in New York with its grand brownstones. And, unlike those cultures, it wasn't a form that was marketed much to wealthier Torontonians. The centres of those older cities may have been through several building cycles before the Victorian era, resulting in core residential neighbourhoods ( where they survive ) that were showy with continuous walls of brownstones and neo-Classical terraces. We've still got "first generation" residences - built when we were a much smaller city and Simcoe's grassy Park Lots were sold off and developed - quite near the core. There's an almost rural feeling to our downtown residential streets, with their smaller scale, breathing space, and glimpses of the sky betwen the homes compared to other major cities. As a form, they're a real treasure now we're a much bigger metropolis.

Of azureray's two choices I don't see how one can say with any certainty which will turn out to be the better financial investment. Perhaps just buy what appeals to you the most and take it from there?

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

Why detached only? Isn't a condo essentially an "attached" structure, potentially with more than 2 neighbours?

I'd gladly make our semi into a rowhouse, if only for the energy savings and extra 8 inches of room!

It's a personal preference. If we were to have paid more for a ground level residence vs. a condo we wanted our own back & front yard for our dog & gardens and no worries of sound transmission issues from the neighbour on the other side nor any potential disputes over the maintenance of the other half of the property be it landscaping or the structure itself. Friends and family over the years have had some of these types of problems so that weighs heavily on my mind. About 8 years ago friends of mine went from a condo and bought a beautiful 4 level row-house directly across from where they were living on Gloucester Street. It was a gorgeous home but they could hear their neighbour on the other side snoring at night and there became a problem with playing music (these folks were in their 50's) and movies on their home theatre system in their living room in early evening. They sold and moved within a year.

 

[Eug]

Heh. Draper Street. Those are not only Victorian semis, they're also heritage homes (but you already knew that). And some of them aren't in the greatest of shape IIRC. The one on the corner at Front looked almost condemned for many years, but I think it finally went through a very major renovation to bring it up to snuff. The good news is that street is beautiful in the spring, when the trees are in bloom, and it's in the core of King West. A nice little oasis... if you can deal with all the many idiosyncracies of ancient homes and don't mind the heritage designation.

Anyways, as for me, I specifically avoided any fixer uppers when I looked for a detached, and I'm not keen on heritage designation either. For me to buy something like that would mean it'd have to have be extremely well updated on the inside. If you do go that direction though, in the very least get a home inspector from a large well-respected company, and consider getting extras like having the plumbing snaked, etc. That could save you a big headache in the future.

 

[urbandreamer]

Forget home inspectors: They're useless--you can get a home inspection license online! Even guys in the business for years tend to have forgotten their trade--or just want their $500 in 2 hours kind of thing.... Instead, bring along a friend or trusted person working in a variety of trades==a licensed plumber, electrician, foundation specialist, etc. If house has sloping floor for example, chances are great a previous owner dug out basement illegally thus compromising foundation. Rewiring knob and tube (requirement for getting mortgage insurance) can cost between $7500 and $15000 depending on demand for electricians (last year during tank in real estate market, many electricians had their salaries halved...still can get quotes for less than peak in 2007 if you're a hard negotiator.) Knob and tube rewiring means lotsa work redoing old lathe plaster--with drywall if you're doing it cheaper than hiring old school (and hard to find, unless you go to Amish country) plasterer.

Semi-detached can bring problems--what if neighbours have crappy foundation, are noisy, etc?--but still better value than condos imho.

Unrenovated c.1900 Victorian: budget at least $25000 if doing some of the renovations yourself, $40k+ if getting contractor. Watch out for contractors that trick you....

Also, if at all possible, (without compromising old stained glass windows etc) get new double-paned glazing--makes a huge difference in noise and heat loss. (But will add another $10-$15k on top of the above quoted cost.)

 

[Eug]

Forget home inspectors: They're useless--you can get a home inspection license online! Even guys in the business for years tend to have forgotten their trade--or just want their $500 in 2 hours kind of thing....

It sounds like you or your friends have hired the wrong home inspectors. The good ones are engineers and backed by large companies, and have thick books with check off lists that need to be filled out. They'll answer all your questions, and suggest areas where they may have missed stuff, or may recommend other trades that may be of use to you. Some may also often give you ballpark costing for fixes.

Instead, bring along a friend or trusted person working in a variety of trades==a licensed plumber, electrician, foundation specialist, etc. If house has sloping floor for example, chances are great a previous owner dug out basement illegally thus compromising foundation.

It's not that hard for an well-trained and experienced engineer who is a home inspector to see some of that. But other things they can't see require the specialists, like the plumber to snake the drains, etc. But yeah, if you have additional questions, it may make sense to hire an electrician and foundation specialist etc.

Rewiring knob and tube (requirement for getting mortgage insurance)

Are you really recommending mortgage insurance?!? Mortgage insurance is a scam. You pay money to protect the bank.

 

[UserNameToronto]

Rewiring knob and tube (requirement for getting mortgage insurance) can cost between $7500 and $15000 depending on demand for electricians

1) By now, many older homes have had their knob & tube wiring replaced. Every place we looked at was 100% done (we had an electrician certify this). We have spent $0 on our electrical system, $0 on plumbing (also already modernized), and $0 on furnace/aircon (already there).

2) Do you mean home insurance (which is mandatory if you have a mortgage)? Or mortgage insurance (which isn't mandatory, or necessary, and I would not recommend getting)? It's tough to get home insurance on a home with knob & tube, so many houses are already modernized.

Unrenovated c.1900 Victorian: budget at least $25000 if doing some of the renovations yourself, $40k+ if getting contractor. Watch out for contractors that trick you....

Not sure what a definition of "Unrennovated" is - we've spent less than $5K in 3 years on repairs.

When it comes to rennovations you can spend whatever you like. I am not sure why $25-40K on a Victorian is any different than $25-40K on anything else.

Also, if at all possible, (without compromising old stained glass windows etc) get new double-paned glazing--makes a huge difference in noise and heat loss. (But will add another $10-$15k on top of the above quoted cost.)

Not many houses (outside those with a historical designation) feature single pane glass all around.

I would imagine most truly unrennovated Victorians--single pane glass, old wiring, old plumbing, oil fired furnace, etc--are not really condo alternatives in situ. Modernized ones are, and they're reasonably plentiful and affordable.

 

[Roy G Biv]

I currently live in a Heritage Victorian in Cabbagetown, and will be moving into a condo this year. I love the neighborhood, and the house, but the up-keep is just way too much.

- Leaky roofs
- Termites
- Bad insulation
- Raccoons and Squirrels
- Backed up sewers

With that said, I have some regrets about selling...