A bigger Canada?

[Polkaroo]

And explain why they won't.

I don't know why they won't,but currently the vast majority of immigrants are settling in just a few areas of Canada. If I were to venture a guess, I would think it's because most immigrants come from warmer climates than Canada so they want to live in the warmest parts of Canada.

 

[GenerationW]

If I were to venture a guess, I would think it's because most immigrants come from warmer climates than Canada so they want to live in the warmest parts of Canada.

Climate has little to do with it. The Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver areas are where most of the jobs are, and where their fellow immigrant communities reside

 

[Polkaroo]

Climate has little to do with it. The Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver areas are where most of the jobs are, and where their fellow immigrant communities reside

That's definitely a factor but I still think that climate plays a big role. Look at Windsor, it has no more jobs than other cities its size or even smaller yet it's one of the fastest growing cities in the country.

 

[kEiThZ]

I think we should strive towards eliminating difference, aka assimilation.

Also, no offense intended, but Canada is a european society. I feel bothered by ideas of bringing in blacks from africa to be 70% of the population. It would no longer be Canada then, but something else. Difference exists, which is something that liberals and socialists do not want to admit.

That is racist. And it is offensive.

I am a South Asian immigrant. I got my citizenship and I serve in the CF. I'd venture to say that I embody the Candian ideal and Canadian values better than some native born Canadians. I would say that our Haitian born Governor General certainly embodies Canadian values. So did Ujjal Dosanjh when he was Premier of BC.

Canada is not a European society. We are a society that simply has roots in Western Europe. We have Western values. But that does not by any means automatically make us European. I see no problem with 70% of our population being of African heritage as long as they sufficiently absorb Canadian values and can integrate well into our existing society. We are already well on our way to be first country in history to change our skin colour if you will. And yet I have seen no sign that Canada is some how falling apart because of non-white immigrants. If anything these immigrants are driving Canada to new heights.

In the sum of your posts on racial and ethnic issues, I definitely see a European line of thought. The same attitude that I see and experience when I visit my relatives in Austria. They were born there and the have the Viennese accent but because of their skin colour they'll never be fully accepted as Austrian. I hope that such a mentality never prevails in Canada. And I hope you learn that the strength of our nation comes precisely from its diversity and the fact that we don't have such cultural stagnation. That's one of the benefits of not having the cultural baggage of the Old World.

 

[Second_in_pie]

That's definitely a factor but I still think that climate plays a big role. Look at Windsor, it has no more jobs than other cities its size or even smaller yet it's one of the fastest growing cities in the country.

Umm, check the books. Windsor has an abysmal negative growth rate.

Canada's cold. I think we can all agree, except for those smug people along the southern BC coast, that if you're living in the country, you're expecting to live in a cold country. But we have these really cool inventions called heaters and furnaces. Very cold temperatures are no longer that much of an issue, especially in the built up areas where you can go to an indoor sports dome, community centre, swimming pool, etc.
And if projections are right, the rest of the country is going to be a lot warmer in 50 years than it is now

What exactly is "Canadian culture"? I could swear that there's been a big long discussion on this, and we've come to a general consensus: there isn't really a Canadian culture (other than Hockey, Maple Syrup, Eh and not being American.) Canadian culture is more of a system of values; appreciation of our environment, acceptance and friendliness towards others, and what would seem to be a knack for making fun of everyone around us. I'll admit that there are certain cultures like assorted other French Canadian, Maritimer, Aboriginal, and others, that wouldn't work with a huge influx of immigrants keeping their old ways of life. But I know plenty of people who'd be considered new immigrants that'd love to live a Nova Scotian live in Nova Scotia and would be willing to give up their wider cultural practices (I know plenty who have.) But others want to be able to live in this country that's defined by it's tolerance and pleasantness but maintain their old traditions and old ways of life.
There's plenty of room in Canada for all these people, and it's what makes Canada the country it is today. I think you're really missing out if you don't walk onto a subway and think it cool that we're one of the only cities on the globe where you can walk down the street and see something other than a sea of white people, or black people or Indians or Chinese.

 

[GenerationW]

That's definitely a factor but I still think that climate plays a big role. Look at Windsor, it has no more jobs than other cities its size or even smaller yet it's one of the fastest growing cities in the country.

I can agree that Windsor's climate is different than Toronto's but it's not a substantial difference (on average, 1.3 degrees warmer than Toronto). And if climate plays that a big role, why is Windsor's population in the low hundreds of thousands and not millions?

 

[GenerationW]

Umm, check the books. Windsor has an abysmal negative growth rate.

According to Wiki....

2006, the population of Windsor was 216,473 and that of the Windsor metropolitan area (consisting of Windsor, Tecumseh, Amherstburg, LaSalle and Lakeshore) was 323,342.[14] This represents a growth of 3.5% in the city population since 2001 and a growth of 5.0% in the metropolitan area population since 2001.[15]

Because of its jobs, Windsor attracts many immigrants from around the world. Over 20% of the population is foreign-born; this is the fourth-highest proportion for a Canadian city. Visible minorities make up 21.0% of the population, making it the most diverse city in Ontario outside of the Greater Toronto Area.

Don't know how 2006 compares to today however.

 

[afransen]

Race has nothing to do with it. Import 60 million of any mix of ethnicities in a generation or two and Canadian culture would be totally obliterated. Maybe that's okay. Canadian culture has already changed a lot from the days when Italians and Ukranians were considered 'ethnics'. But let's be real: there wouldn't be much left of what is now Canadian culture.

 

[Second_in_pie]

I think the most updated estimates that I've seen put it at a -3 or 4% growth rate, though that may be due to exceptional decline across the river from the financial crisis and the Big 3 going out of commission.

It's all about what's historically happened. The St. Lawrence region, Maritimes, and Lower Mainland have historically had fairly mild and warmer weather. They were able to get cities and infrastructure established which resulted in so many people being focused in these regions today. That's probably not the whole picture, but it's my explanation for it, and I stand by the fact that modern technology has made climate a more negligible factor in people picking their place to stay.

 

[doady]

If all immigration was stopped, does that mean Canadian culture becomes static and immune to change?

Is Canada so isolated from the rest of world, that the rest of the world has no influence on the development of Canadian culture outside of immigration?

If culture changes anyways, then what is point of preserving culture? According to whose definition of Canadian culture should Canadian culture be preserved: my definition, yours, or someone elses?

How can European immigrants considered more "Canadian" than African immigrants when the original people of Canada were not of European origin, and Canada is not in Europe?

 

[Rowe]

That is racist. And it is offensive.

I am a South Asian immigrant. I got my citizenship and I serve in the CF. I'd venture to say that I embody the Candian ideal and Canadian values better than some native born Canadians. I would say that our Haitian born Governor General certainly embodies Canadian values. So did Ujjal Dosanjh when he was Premier of BC.

Canada is not a European society. We are a society that simply has roots in Western Europe. We have Western values. But that does not by any means automatically make us European. I see no problem with 70% of our population being of African heritage as long as they sufficiently absorb Canadian values and can integrate well into our existing society. We are already well on our way to be first country in history to change our skin colour if you will. And yet I have seen no sign that Canada is some how falling apart because of non-white immigrants. If anything these immigrants are driving Canada to new heights.

In the sum of your posts on racial and ethnic issues, I definitely see a European line of thought. The same attitude that I see and experience when I visit my relatives in Austria. They were born there and the have the Viennese accent but because of their skin colour they'll never be fully accepted as Austrian. I hope that such a mentality never prevails in Canada. And I hope you learn that the strength of our nation comes precisely from its diversity and the fact that we don't have such cultural stagnation. That's one of the benefits of not having the cultural baggage of the Old World.

Thank you. This is what makes a Canadian.

 

[Hipster Duck]

And explain why they won't.

When you talk about making rural Canada more of a place people will flock to through job creation and infrastructure spending, don't forget that we have done this for generations to no avail.

Jobs? Look at where you send your tax returns: St. John's; Summerside PEI has the GST processing facility; Sault Ste. Marie has OLGC offices; our subway and GO cars are made at the former UTDC plant in Thunder Bay, etc., etc.

Infrastructure? We built a 17 km bridge to PEI, a refinery in Come by Chance, Newfoundland, a freeway to Parry Sound and a deepwater port in Churchill. None of those projects elevated any of these backwater regions into economic dynamos, and these areas are still, by in large, stagnant or even losing population.

The reason why immigrants (or people in general) don't want to settle in rural communities is that there are no opportunities there, and opportunities arise from more than just the construction of physical infrastructure or doling out tax breaks. Say you want to start a manufacturing company. What do you look for? You need specialized people and specialized resources which can only be found in an existing agglomerated area: the lawyer who knows international tax treaties, the mechanic who can fix a particular type of tool and die machine, the account executive who can speak 4 languages and knows different business customs, the avant-garde restaurant with the famous chef that you want to entertain your clients at. And that's before you factor in people's personal reasons for living in a big city - for immigrants, the foremost being a social support group in the form of other immigrants.

You can't change Canada's settlement patterns; if we are going to have 100 million people, 20 million of them are going to be living in some monstrous GTA, with another 10 million in Vancouver, Calgary and Montreal. However, I wouldn't expect Timmins to even grow by 10,000 people in this kind of scenario.

 

[LAz]

LAz, I don't think that BC would be BC, or the GTA would be the GTA without all of the different ethnicities and "un Canadian" culture.

Well let me tell you my experience. In the late 1980s and 1990s a lot of eastern europeans came to canada. We were one of them. And naturally we hung out with one another all the time. But something happened that makes a difference today. Guess what that is. The kids got assimilated. Almost all of them now speak english as their primary language and most do not even know how to speak their ethnic tongue. Granted that we came here in small numbers...


...immigration on such a large scale will, and I really mean will, create serious ethnic enclaves. In Canada england and french should be the line.

now yeah, there are nice amenities such as greek town - but do the young greeks know greek? Few might? Few out of many. Just a fraction. Ethnicity is turning into a commodity that is to be used for money generation. That can not happen if we bring in shitloads of people. It means something to be canadian - mass immigration will eliminate that.

you did a great job, Laz.

Don't worry bro, I strive to never fail you.

Hm, lets see what else I could pull up from my sleeve...
The ideal city is one where there are no houses actually. Just huge apartment tower blocks, with storefronts on the first flores. Imagine how much more efficient that would be? Imagine how different the city would be if all people of a certain race were segregated then? Even better - this will eliminate the disparities between rich and poor. This would allow and require subway stops literally everywhere due to the high concentration in these 10-20 story towers. Imagine how much efficient society would be!

We are a society that simply has roots in Western Europe. We have Western values. But that does not by any means automatically make us European. I see no problem with 70% of our population being of African heritage as long as they sufficiently absorb Canadian values and can integrate well into our existing society.

Rapid immigration on such a huge scale can not allow for sufficient absorption of values.

I disagree that more groups are a good thing. In the US blacks are still the unofficial second class citizens. That's just how things are. Asians somehow have gotten along differently... they are not in the lower pitfalls of society. But basically when one thinks of what is a canadian one thinks of a white person. Austrians are white people. Canadians are byproducts of that. These colored canadian are different canadians - not saying that they are lower or higher canadians - but they are not the typical canadian that one thinks of when one hears of one.

This is not just european thinking. The Arab Emirates make it almost impossible for whites to get citizenship there. Same for Japan, if I am not mistaken.

 

[kEiThZ]

Rapid immigration on such a huge scale can not allow for sufficient absorption of values.

That is a different issue from the make-up of the immigrant quote. Why are you picking on Africa only? If our immigration mix changed to 70% German or 70% Polish, you'd also have the same impact. In any event, nowhere has the current or previous governments shown any inclination to alter our immigration quotas to favour one ethnicity over another. Our race/religion blind immigration policy is one of the best in the world (if not the absolute best).

I disagree that more groups are a good thing. In the US blacks are still the unofficial second class citizens. That's just how things are.

Wow ignorant. You don't think that centuries of slavery and segregation had any thing to do with the current condition of the Afro-American community in the US? You don't think their socio-economic status today has an element of self-perpetuation?

Asians somehow have gotten along differently... they are not in the lower pitfalls of society.

They've never had the same barriers as blacks. Heck, even some blacks don't like other blacks. We all know how it is in the real world. Immigrants hate on each other more than whites hating on immigrants. That just doesn't show up in the mainstream press. But blacks, even today, are the targets of virtually everybody's scorn. If you doubt me, ask a Chinese or Indian parent, how they'd feel about their daughter dating a black guy.

But basically when one thinks of what is a canadian one thinks of a white person. Austrians are white people. Canadians are byproducts of that. These colored canadian are different canadians - not saying that they are lower or higher canadians - but they are not the typical canadian that one thinks of when one hears of one.

And those views are ignorant and racist. We are a multi-cultural society. There's no reason for others to think of Canadians as only being white. It's their problem if they can't perceive the diversity of our nation. And if they can't they better get used to it. Should we replace Michaelle Jean with a white person because foreigners might get offended that the Canadian in the highest position in our land is not white?

And I really don't care what the Austrians do. Just because they do it, does not make it right. They can keep their ignorant ways. But at least, in the old world, such views are somewhat understandable. Austria is home of the Austrian people. Who exactly are the historical inhabitants of Canada? And how far back do you want to go? Should we kick out even the whites and return the land back to the aboriginal peoples?

And yes, you are saying coloured Canadians are different. And that they are lower in value. Because they don't fit some ignorant pre-conceived notion of what a Canadian should look like.

May I remind you that half a century ago, the pre-conceived notion of an immigrant, would not have included Slavs like yourself. Nor would it have included our Aboriginal peoples. It was English mostly, and French occassionally. Heck, it didn't really include the Irish and barely included Scots who came over. Should we have stuck to that image and not evolved at all?

This is not just european thinking. The Arab Emirates make it almost impossible for whites to get citizenship there. Same for Japan, if I am not mistaken.

I lived in the UAE. I am fully aware of their citizenship policies. It's not about somebody being white or black or brown. They don't give citizenship to anybody that does not have patrilineal descent from a UAE citizen. Simple as that. Women who marry outsiders (even if they are Arabs from other Gulf countries) give up the right of citizenship for their children.

But again. How is that relevant? They UAE and Japan (which has virtually no immigration) have chosen to structure their policies that way. And they are paying for it by the way. The UAE is in a constant struggle to convince wealthy South Asians to keep their money in the UAE and not take it all back to India when they retire. Their policies do bite them in the six now and will continue to happen in the future. That's the price they pay for not letting migrants workers make the UAE their home. Japan is seeing its population age dramatically, at a rate that's never before been seen in history, with the attendant social and economic consequences. You still want to emulate those two countries as models of immigration?

 

[kEiThZ]

Well let me tell you my experience. In the late 1980s and 1990s a lot of eastern europeans came to canada. We were one of them. And naturally we hung out with one another all the time. But something happened that makes a difference today. Guess what that is. The kids got assimilated. Almost all of them now speak english as their primary language and most do not even know how to speak their ethnic tongue. Granted that we came here in small numbers...


...immigration on such a large scale will, and I really mean will, create serious ethnic enclaves. In Canada england and french should be the line.

now yeah, there are nice amenities such as greek town - but do the young greeks know greek? Few might? Few out of many. Just a fraction. Ethnicity is turning into a commodity that is to be used for money generation. That can not happen if we bring in shitloads of people. It means something to be canadian - mass immigration will eliminate that.

And what makes you think that only white Europeans have this experience. Go to BC and have a look at the South Asian communities who've been there for a few generations now. Their experience has been no different than yours.

It's incredibly racist and presumptuous to assume that white immigrants assimilate better into Canadian society than brown immigrants.