401 Rapid Transit?

[Tcmetro]

Should the 401RT idea be resurrected? It seems like a good idea to me, but I am not from Toronto.

For those that don't know the 401RT is a new rapid transit line along the 401 and the Sheppard Subway from Mississauga City Centre, Pearson Airport, North York City Centre, Scarborough City Centre to Pickering. IMO, it should be extended to connect with the GO Lakeshore West line.

Here is an article that was in the Star about a year and a half ago: http://www.thestar.com/News/Ideas/article/429061

 

[Second_in_pie]

I'd like some sort of RT route along the 401, but I'd prefer it to be BRT over heavy rail. There could be one BRT route that goes along it, and a bunch of bus-only interchanges with other Highways, and RT stations. This would greatly improve Go's entire bus network, and would provide an extra crosstown route.

I'd also like to see the Finch Hydro Corridor GO ALRT route built as well, as per the original GO ALRT plan.

 

[Dan416]

Should the 401RT idea be resurrected? It seems like a good idea to me, but I am not from Toronto.

For those that don't know the 401RT is a new rapid transit line along the 401 and the Sheppard Subway from Mississauga City Centre, Pearson Airport, North York City Centre, Scarborough City Centre to Pickering. IMO, it should be extended to connect with the GO Lakeshore West line.

Here is an article that was in the Star about a year and a half ago: http://www.thestar.com/News/Ideas/article/429061

I don't see how a 401 line would serve MCC when MCC is nowhere near the 401. Unless you mean a connection from the Mississauga BRT to a 401 BRT?

 

[doady]

A Finch Transitway (in the hydro corridor) built as an extension of the Mississauga Transitway and connecting to the 407 Transitway and the York University Transitway would be ideal. The Finch Transitway would have both local and regional service from the TTC and GO and make the proposed Finch LRT obselete.

The Finch transitway, combined with the other transitways, would allow for direct, reliable and FAST express service between a variety of destinations in the GTA, including the airport, York University, UTM, MCC, SCC, Markham Centre, Richmond Hill Centre, NYCC, VCC, and so on. And at the same time substantially enhancing the bus service for both Finch West and Finch East.

 

[Tcmetro]

It would go under the airport or something, I don't know the area well, sorry. There is a map linked in the article in the menu on the left.

 

[Northern Light]

It depends

While I am supportive of rapid transit in the 401 corridor, I don't think LRT or subway would likely be the right application.

I also think a 'modified' alignment would be needed to make to work.

To explain.

Roughly, and this is not strict as on any line, you can tinker with rolling stock and station spacing.....the assumption usually is:

Bus-hyper local, frequent stop service
LRT/BRT slightly large stop spacing, some district/regional demand
Subway - Heavy demand, all-day stop spacing 2-4x that of LRT/BRT
Commuter Rail, long-distance, express service, 4-6x stop spacing vs. lrt

Freeway corridors do not typically (there are exceptions) generate LRT/local type demand, nor would it be practical to accommodate it. Stations generally would need to be near bridges, that means much greater stop spacing. Besides, highways don't tend to serve local demand.

Subway could work, but again, there are spacing issues, density issues, trip generation issues around that type of service, and barring a 4 track alignment, it would not meet express demand well.

So the Commuter Rail (GO Train option) seems best (though it might well use EMU rolling stock)

But, you still have to address direct connections to trip generators.

I don't think a service will do well, if you have a long outdoor platform, a climb to a highway overpass, which isn't very pedestrian friendly, probably a few blocks from your destination, where you would likely wait outside for a bus.

So, I would suggest the following, and underground station at Pickering GO Station, tracks emerge into the mid-highway corridor (to save money); but the trains go underground, briefly to divert south at Scarborough Center, and meet the RT Station; then divert back into the highway (at grade) before going underground again at Yonge, and having a direct connection to Yonge-Sheppard Station. Back to the Highway, then a diversion to meet Wilson Station underground at the Spadina Line, before heading express to Pearson Airport.

An additional Connection to Oriole GO Station could be made, with a mid-highway station.

A connection to the Stouffville GO line would have to be demand-tested, as it would only make sense to divert north and meet Agincourt Station underground.

*******

Having said that, I don't this ranks as a top priority.

Among Commuter projects, I would rank:

1) Lakeshore to REX
2) Georgetown to All-day/REX
3) Barrie to All-Day
4) Stouffville to All-Day
5) Milton to REX
6) New GO Mid-town connection (E-W) this could be the CP midtown line or a #401 line

So I think there's lots to do before we get to this project, but I do think it has a place in the future.

 

[Northern Magus]

Sorry folks but I disagree completely. Like the Spadina extension before it, this would be a subway to nowhere. It might have a few stops, but it wouldn't have any real destinations. I think its main appeal is that it could be a very cheaply built alternative to a proper transit line situated underneath a high density corridor. But IMO the Etobicoke Finch West and Sheppard East lines have made this redundant.

 

[Second_in_pie]

I think the 401 would make a better transitway than the Finch hydro corridor. The 401 was specifically designed to interlink with major roads best, making it an excellent place to put a BRT.

I'd do the hydro corridor similar to the GO ALRT proposed route along there, runing from oakland up along the QEW, then ducking down into MCC, following that hydro corridor up to Pearson, up to the Finch hydro corridor, through a small underground portion that could share with the Georgetown corridor, finally ducking back down to Pickering Go station. It'd be the pinnacle of connectivity.

I honestly don't see a lot of use for a hydro corridor transitway though. I just don't think there's a lot of opportunities for other bus routes to use it. I think it'd best serve as a route on it's own, which would provide relief to the Finch busses and serve local trips along Finch and around the hydro corridor. I think it'd best be done with some sort of Heavy Rail technology and mostly act like a metro.

 

[Tcmetro]

Northern Light, I like your suggestion of going off of the freeway for the stations. It serves areas well without the problems of access to freeway stations, but it travels in the freeway corridors in between stations to save on elevation/tunneling costs.

 

[doady]

Sorry folks but I disagree completely. Like the Spadina extension before it, this would be a subway to nowhere. It might have a few stops, but it wouldn't have any real destinations.

If the third largest university in Canada - with over 50,000 students - cannot be considered a "real destination" then what can be?

 

[Northern Magus]

If the third largest university in Canada - with over 50,000 students - cannot be considered a "real destination" then what can be?

You're greatly underestimating the scale of ridership required to justify the capital expenses. Maybe if every York student would ride the line at least once every three hours, every day, every week, then it could work.

But unfortunately York students don't just travel along that one route, and better links to existing transit lines are already in place or are in the process of being built.

 

[doady]

I think the 401 would make a better transitway than the Finch hydro corridor. The 401 was specifically designed to interlink with major roads best, making it an excellent place to put a BRT.

How exactly is the 401 an "excellent" place to put BRT? Where exactly would this BRT go? If there is no space for the busway, how can there be pace to build access ramps for buses onto the busway? How are buses supposed to serve the stations if they are located at busy interchanges? How are pedestrians supposed to walk there?

A 401 RT is already a bad idea, and a 401 BRT is even worse.

I'd do the hydro corridor similar to the GO ALRT proposed route along there, runing from oakland up along the QEW, then ducking down into MCC, following that hydro corridor up to Pearson, up to the Finch hydro corridor, through a small underground portion that could share with the Georgetown corridor, finally ducking back down to Pickering Go station. It'd be the pinnacle of connectivity.

A BRT could do those exact same connections and then some. The BRT service could easily go beyond MCC and Oakville and Pickering, and serve many destinations in-between that an ALRT would not, such as York U and SCC. Remember, than any bus services using the Finch Transitway would not be constrained to the Transitway itself.

I honestly don't see a lot of use for a hydro corridor transitway though. I just don't think there's a lot of opportunities for other bus routes to use it.

If the corridor is not for bus service, why would rail service be any more useful? Doesn't make any sense.

 

[Northern Magus]

Oh, and fyi I just double-checked: York U is not on the 401. It's more than 2km away.

My observation stands.

 

[doady]

You're greatly underestimating the scale of ridership required to justify the capital expenses. Maybe if every York student would ride the line at least once every three hours, every day, every week, then it could work.

But unfortunately York students don't just travel along that one route, and better links to existing transit lines are already in place or are in the process of being built.

Oh, so basically having "real destinations" along transit line is not so important after all? Then maybe you shouldn't criticize transit plans for not serving them.

 

[golodhendil]

Oh, and fyi I just double-checked: York U is not on the 401. It's more than 2km away.

My observation stands.

doady's York U comment is in response to your quip about the Spadina extension.