25-Year Masterplanning (TTC 1950s/60s, Network 2011, GO 2020, Metrolinx 2031, Metrolinx 2041)

[micheal_can]

I find it interesting how if you put all of them together into one plan, certain parts become obvious that they are known to be needed. the DRL/Queen line is a great example.

It gets really annoying when a new mayor is elected and decides to throw away the plan. Toronto needs RT really bad, but it almost seems as though the elected officials can't make anything happen. I wonder what would happen if you had to travel by TTC to be a councilor/mayor. Would that cause more work to get done?

 

[WislaHD]

It would certainly result in some hilarity for the suburban councilors.

 

[kEiThZ]

It gets really annoying when a new mayor is elected and decides to throw away the plan. Toronto needs RT really bad, but it almost seems as though the elected officials can't make anything happen. I wonder what would happen if you had to travel by TTC to be a councilor/mayor. Would that cause more work to get done?

Move council out of downtown. Make them meet in a different borough every week.

That more than anything will help change minds. As it stands, downtown councillors don't care about long commutes from the burbs to downtown. Likewise, suburban councillors don't know anything about how full those streetcars are.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Move council out of downtown. Make them meet in a different borough every week.

That more than anything will help change minds. As it stands, downtown councillors don't care about long commutes from the burbs to downtown. Likewise, suburban councillors don't know anything about how full those streetcars are.

Ah yes, the Upper/Lower Canada solution, but weekly instead of yearly.

 

[WislaHD]

As it stands, downtown councillors don't care about long commutes from the burbs to downtown

I really don't think so.

Most "downtown" councilors come from neighbourhoods like Midtown, Roncesvalles or Leslieville. They get the perils of commuting to downtown.

And they probably shake their heads at the daftness of suburban councilors to relate to their own constituents waiting at bus stops while they are driven to city hall in a car.

 

[TransitBart]

I really don't think so.

Most "downtown" councilors come from neighbourhoods like Midtown, Roncesvalles or Leslieville. They get the perils of commuting to downtown.

And they probably shake their heads at the daftness of suburban councilors to relate to their own constituents waiting at bus stops while they are driven to city hall in a car.

Councillors have drivers still?

 

[WislaHD]

Councillors have drivers still?

I don't know, was that an actual thing in the past?

I just assumed somebody in their office picked them up and drove them to City Hall and various public meetings.

 

[Johnny Au]

Move council out of downtown. Make them meet in a different borough every week.

That more than anything will help change minds. As it stands, downtown councillors don't care about long commutes from the burbs to downtown. Likewise, suburban councillors don't know anything about how full those streetcars are.

Let's put the York Civic Centre to good use!

 

[mdrejhon]

Another "master plan" (Government-made map) -- as longshot or not -- but deserves being posted here in this thread, being a government-made map:

From TTC 2018-2022 Corporate Plan
(Thanks nfitz for headsup)

This has a lot of consistencies with Metrolinx 2041 RTP already, and Metrolinx is funding some of this TTC Corporate Plan (e.g. Elginton Line 5 LRT -- the Crosstown -- is 100% funded by Metrolinx).

Very importantly, observe the Jane LRT (Line 8)

--> It supposedly died as part of the cancellation (by Rob Ford) of Transit City.
--> Now it is solidly part of multiple master plans at multiple government levels (and candidates) -- e.g. Metrolinx 2041, TTC Corporate Plan, Keesmat Plan -- all mention the Jane LRT. Thanks to Metrolinx, the political meddling of a Jane LRT survives into multiple masterplans.

Likewise, putting masterplanning into an arm's length agency (Metrolinx) can be a double edged sword -- for example, Doug Ford will probably make prioritization changes to Metrolinx (e.g. increasing priority of Niagara GO extension, for example) but this is at least already congruent to many existing routes already in Metrolinx 2041 plan. Flexibility to do more drasticness is limited. So it perceived as simply political reprioritization of pre-existing routes in long-term planning that currently has a higher success ratio than anytime in the last 50 years of Toronto/Ontario history (witness 2/3rd of Metrolinx 2031 RTP already has shovel action -- in RFQ/RFP, or under construction, or already built) -- in a checkered history of much more dismal successes of transit master plans.

So several routes never permanently gets wastefully cancelled, but 'optimized' by political parties. That is a double edged sword, but is far by a lesser of evil than the transit slaughter that happened in the 1990s (Harris / Rae era) where many plans got permanently cancelled.

The jury is still out when Jane LRT will get funded, but seeing it pop up repeatedly after Transit City Cancellation -- and seeing it enshrined in multiple masterplans at multiple government levels -- belies a greater promise that I've already written about in the first post of this thread.

Transit plans are much more resurrectable/optimizable than they were in past decades. This is how I analyze this, and this is why I feel Metrolinx may have been one of the best things to ever happen to GTHA transit -- it's going to avoid a 1990s repeat.

 

[Neutrino]

The zombie transit projects

 

[MisterF]

The Jane LRT always struck me as a bit problematic. It just dumps riders at Bloor when most of them will be going much farther. Riders will have two transfers to get downtown. And there's no interface with the Kitchener RER line, which could otherwise become the primary way downtown for people in that area.

Maybe extend the Jane line southeast and have it run under College/Carlton. Maybe that's a long shot but I never liked the way the line just ends where it does.

 

[BurlOak]

The Jane LRT always struck me as a bit problematic. It just dumps riders at Bloor when most of them will be going much farther. Riders will have two transfers to get downtown. And there's no interface with the Kitchener RER line, which could otherwise become the primary way downtown for people in that area.

Maybe extend the Jane line southeast and have it run under College/Carlton. Maybe that's a long shot but I never liked the way the line just ends where it does.

Jane LRT is the symmetric equivalent of the Don Mills LRT - which was to dump off passengers at Pape Station.
With even the smallest bit of analysis, they will realize that Jane is a bad idea.
Not only does this have to be continuous to the downtown, but looking at the population density map, it appears that it should take Parkside, Keele, Weston, Black Creek Jane. Either that, or abandon it altogether and run the DRL West up Dufferin.

 

[pman]

Jane LRT is the symmetric equivalent of the Don Mills LRT - which was to dump off passengers at Pape Station.
With even the smallest bit of analysis, they will realize that Jane is a bad idea.
Not only does this have to be continuous to the downtown, but looking at the population density map, it appears that it should take Parkside, Keele, Weston, Black Creek Jane. Either that, or abandon it altogether and run the DRL West up Dufferin.

Since when did population density ever factor into Toronto transit plans? Sorry, masterplans.

 

[Neutrino]

Isn't TTC ridership driven by bus connections? For example, the Relief Line is expected to go through low density areas, but have high ridership because it will be intercepting the busy suburban bus routes. That being said, I don't see a Jane subway being viable north of Bloor. I hope the TTC studies this option and comes to as unbiased politically an answer as possible (yes, yes, the usual caveats.)

 

[W. K. Lis]

Jane LRT is the symmetric equivalent of the Don Mills LRT - which was to dump off passengers at Pape Station.
With even the smallest bit of analysis, they will realize that Jane is a bad idea.
Not only does this have to be continuous to the downtown, but looking at the population density map, it appears that it should take Parkside, Keele, Weston, Black Creek Jane. Either that, or abandon it altogether and run the DRL West up Dufferin.

With the Jane buses (both local 35 and express 935) dumping everyone at Jane Station, people have to transfer to at least the Runnymede Station to get a ride down to The Queensway and get on the 501 Queen to get downtown.

From 1989 to 1996, we had the 138 SOUTH KINGSWAY bus. From link.

As part of a systemwide reduction in service resulting from an elimination of provincial subsidy, service on this route is eliminated. Service on Ormskirk Avenue and a portion of South Kingsway between Ormskirk and the Queensway provided by a rush-hour extension of the 71 RUNNYMEDE bus.

If it was not eliminated, it could have been still around, maybe even with service improvements. We could even have plans to extend the Jane LRT south to The Queensway, maybe even joining up with the Lake Shore LRT to downtown. Put the blame on Doug Ford's idol, Mike Harris.