2020 US Democratic Party primaries discussion

[Northern Light]

Putting aside that I find the U.S. primary system alternately obnoxious and nonsensical; I think the broader US electoral system which essentially limits one to a duopoly of 2 established choices representing a relatively narrow range of social interests and ideas is entirely unreasonable.

It may be better than open autocracy; but given how little really changes from one election to the next, and how well established interests are protected........I'm not certain by how much.

Obama: Great rhetoric (sincerely), but no minimum wage increase in 8 years, including the 2 where the Dems had control of both the House and the Senate; no gun control, and a healthcare reform package that did move the needle, but still left about 9% of Americans uninsured, and many more under insured.

Trump, Terrible rhetoric (sincerely): Obamacare remains intact, the 'endless wars' go on unimpeded all rhetoric to the contrary............etc etc.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Obama: Great rhetoric (sincerely), but no minimum wage increase in 8 years, including the 2 where the Dems had control of both the House and the Senate; no gun control, and a healthcare reform package that did move the needle, but still left about 9% of Americans uninsured, and many more under insured.

Trump, Terrible rhetoric (sincerely): Obamacare remains intact, the 'endless wars' go on unimpeded all rhetoric to the contrary............etc etc.

Even if Obama wanted to lean further left, he is hamstrung by a tea-party dominated Congress and a recalcitrant Senate during his terms. As to Trump, don't say he didn't try to kill ACA - he certainly weakened it enough that it may die.

AoD

 

[Northern Light]

Even if Obama wanted to lean further left, he is hamstrung by a tea-party dominated Congress and a recalcitrant Senate during his terms. As to Trump, don't say he didn't try to kill ACA - he certainly weakened it enough that it may die.

AoD

I was singling out Obama's first 1/2 of his first term when the Democrats controlled both the House and the Senate. No tea party excuses required.

As to Trump, I let him off the hook for nothing; but I will add, it was his own party that killed his bills to kill Obamacare. That's my point, essentially a giant machine dedicated to the status quo.

One version (Dems) comes off as kinder and gentler, and may well be. But its still a duopoly of rich, mostly white men, for both parties, who are backed financially by mostly the same established interests.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I was singling out Obama's first 1/2 of his first term when the Democrats controlled both the House and the Senate. No tea party excuses required.

As to Trump, I let him off the hook for nothing; but I will add, it was his own party that killed his bills to kill Obamacare. That's my point, essentially a giant machine dedicated to the status quo.

Doesn't really matter even then - policy changes takes time, and unlike our parliamentary system with centralized party control the US system of distributed checks and balances really work against Obama even with both House and Senate controlled by the Democrats.

AoD

 

[Northern Light]

Doesn't really matter even then - policy changes takes time, and unlike our parliamentary system with centralized party control the US system of distributed checks and balances really work against Obama even with both House and Senate controlled by the Democrats.

AoD

Then back to where I started; the system is a problem.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Then back to where I started; the system is a problem.

Of course it is - and you can blame their founding fathers for it. Historians will be writing about this one for awhile.

AoD

 

[Jasmine18]

I found it unconvincing for someone who kept on using the phrases "far left", "socialist" casually, inaccurately and with derision to profess a sudden admiration for Obama, much less Bernie Sanders.

AoD

That's because you may be a highly intelligent person but you think eveyone must be in specific boxes because you have a us vs them attitude about things.

A person politics is not based 100% on ideology. One may respect a person they dont agree with if they are a person of good character...an example is jack layton.

I dont agree with all of bernie policies but I do respect his authenticity and obama was a decent man with hardly any moral failings which is remarkable for a man who was president for 8 years.

There are people running for office that have had many more scandals then obama ever had before even entering the White House...that's says something.

 

[picard102]

You are really telling Me Joe Biden is the best the Democrats have to offer for President

Yes.

I find it funny you try to paint me as an alt-right person even though I like Obama and Bernie

No one is "trying" to paint you as something you're not already presenting yourself as. You frequently espouse right wing rhetoric.

 

[Jasmine18]

Yes.



No one is "trying" to paint you as something you're not already presenting yourself as. You frequently espouse right wing rhetoric.

Well if you think I am some raving crazy conservative I think it speaks more about you and the bubble you live in then about me.

Especially if you think a 78 year old man who is a gaffe machine is the best america has to offer ?

 

[jje1000]

Even if Obama wanted to lean further left, he is hamstrung by a tea-party dominated Congress and a recalcitrant Senate during his terms. As to Trump, don't say he didn't try to kill ACA - he certainly weakened it enough that it may die.

AoD

Nah, Obama was never really on the left to begin with.

He was socially on the 'left' (note the massive social movements that blossomed during his tenure), but economically on the 'right', and many of his policies were essentially continuations of Bush's.

I was singling out Obama's first 1/2 of his first term when the Democrats controlled both the House and the Senate. No tea party excuses required.

As to Trump, I let him off the hook for nothing; but I will add, it was his own party that killed his bills to kill Obamacare. That's my point, essentially a giant machine dedicated to the status quo.

One version (Dems) comes off as kinder and gentler, and may well be. But its still a duopoly of rich, mostly white men, for both parties, who are backed financially by mostly the same established interests.

Pretty much my opinion- populists don't call it the 'Uniparty' for nothing!

Bernie and Trump are political outsiders, relatively speaking- but where Trump has co-oped a weak RNC, the DNC is fundamentally set on curb-stomping any independent movement that might threaten their status-quo.

 

[picard102]

Well if you think I am some raving crazy conservative I think it speaks more about you and the bubble you live in then about me.

If you think I'm somehow an isolated case to consider you a staunch conservative, then maybe you should step outside the bubble.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Nah, Obama was never really on the left to begin with.

He was socially on the left (note the massive social movements that blossomed during his tenure), but economically on the right, and many of his policies were essentially continuations of Bush's.

Pretty much my opinion- they don't call it the 'Uniparty' for nothing!

Another case in point is how ACA was basically the Republican position to health care during the debates in the mid-90s - but I am weary of using Canadian (or even international) standards and apply them to US politics.

On the other hand, he didn't get elected by catering to the margins of a divided electorate - and you can't make changes without getting elected first (the flip side of the coin is the disappointment for those who expected a more radical course of action). Nothing wrong with incrementalism though.

AoD

 

[jje1000]

Warren is out!

All eyes are now on who she endorses...

 

[Jasmine18]

Warren is out!

All eyes are now on who she endorses...

That is good she is a solid candidate but no way she would have beat trump in a general.

 

[jje1000]

That is good she is a solid candidate but no way she would have beat trump in a general.

I think the problem with Warren is that her team was very weak, and she got trapped in modern progressiveness's bubble of thought- which ultimately has little to do with most Americans' concerns. Imagine if the Warren on the campaign path was the Warren below?

IMO, a Biden presidency will be very much similar to John Tory's mayoralty- a relatively bland, safe figure who 'represents' a return to 'normalcy' and 'presidentiality'. It'll be considered like awaking from a nightmare, and reassuring yourself as if things never really happened.

The Washington consensus will be restored, the VP, Secretary of State, and the state departments will run the show, and US-China relationships will be restored to a pre-Trump state. Biden, assuming his role as public figurehead, will very much be heralded for his 'presidentialness', and will be considered the inverse of Trump in all areas.

But of course, the solution for one problem usually sets up the next problems- and like how Tory's tenure has led to many otherwise-fixable issues coming to a boil- the US's long-term domestic and international issues may very much not be fixed under a Biden presidency.



One other thing- I think the DNC is essentially set on Biden as they've pegged so much of their legitimacy on Trump's impeachment, to not have Biden as the candidate means that their whole argument that Trump investigated Biden for political reasons falls apart.