Silence&Motion
Senior Member
It's posts like these that make we wish we had a "like" button in this forum.
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2014 Municipal Election: Toronto Mayoral Race
- Thread starter SJD_Toronto
- Start date
It's posts like these that make we wish we had a "like" button in this forum.
JGHali
Active Member
Sorry, why exactly should the City of Toronto concern itself with how people from Markham - who pay no property taxes to the city - get downtown? That is, quite simply, the responsibility of Metrolinx/GO, not the TTC, and one wonders why it should be in the purview of Toronto City Council to make up solutions for regional GTA transportation.
As for the situation on Eglinton, you are far too charitable. It's not simply a matter of coming with a plan and waiting for details later. The western leg of SmartTrack assumes the presence of a surface route in the Richview Corridor which is simply not available. Whether the fabled Mount Dennis turn could be made by a heavy rail train is somewhat secondary to the fact that Tory's numbers do not account for any tunnelling that would be needed, and the engineering challenges are not necessarily trivial and definitely not cheap.
SunriseChampion
Senior Member
I don't think anyone was suggesting that all Chow supporters are like Ford Nationals. The idea was that certain individual Chow supporters were so rigidly ideological that they were putting forth irrational arguments in her favour in such a way as to mimic the reasoning of Ford Nationals. The other idea was that extremists of this sort of any political persuasion are equally repugnant in their rigid adherence--at the exclusion of all else--to their particular ideology. Show me a Tory supporter who acts that way and I'll lump them in with the best, without reservation.
adma
Superstar
That'd depend on the circumstance, of course. And oftentimes, it can be an "extremism of the centre"--more often when they're threatened by the left than by the right.
And re "more often", it makes sense, because by and large, "left-extremism" has a broader, solider, saner foundation than "right-extremism". Or at least insofar as NOW has more real "reach" than Canada Free Press.
But, anyway: at this point, it's safe to say that we can shed a lot of this strategic-stop-Ford talk re John Tory support, because those voting for Tory over Chow now would for the huge part have done so anyway were there no Fords in the race--and strictly on the basis of their respective campaigns. Asking her and her followers to quit, roll over/play dead or join the "strategic" winning team is redundant. And a lot of those "strategic" Tory-pitchers probably wouldn't have voted for Chow unless that two-Forum-polls-ago 39-37-22 nailbiter went Chow-Ford-Tory rather than Tory-Ford-Chow--and if the Chow-Ford-Tory were more like the present 43-29-25, even a lot of *that* Tory support might have opted to stand its faint-hope ground in much the way Chow supporters are doing now...
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
Oh, dear.I could answer this question all day! But this isn't the transportation forum so I'll do my best to be succinct.
Firstly, those people from Markham (and every other suburb) come into Toronto by the 10s of thousands every day (and people go the other way too). Yeah, I know your property tax argument but I'd point out to you that those people from WAY OVER THERE in Markham go to Raptors games and buy lunches in Toronto and get a coffee in Toronto and ... you know, instead of listing 50 things I'll just point out to you that there is no concrete wall at the 416/905 border and if you don't think it's important to Toronto how commuters, from Markham or elsewhere get in or out of the city...well, I'm just going to guess that economic development isn't at the top of your resume. If you don't care about how they get to work, let's just bar them from getting into Toronto ("416 for the 416!") and see how that goes.
Is it Toronto council's "purview" to "make up solutions for regional GTA transportation"? No, it's not and that, along with a lack of ongoing funding, is arguably the single biggest obstruction to building transit in this region. Toronto council (and the TTC) really don't care what happens to some commuter who gets off one of their buses at the municipal border but riders feel differently; riders don't care what colour the bus is, they just want to get from A to B. So, you're right that Metrolinx has to do that job but the least Toronto could do is not obstruct them, say, by wasting 30-years worth of money on a subway that doesn't meet local OR regional needs. That's why some sort of upload or merger with TTC is likely inevitable though, sure, you'd be quite right to point out it hasn't happened yet.
But, to come back on thread, the fact that it's not their "purview," doesn't mean there's something wrong with the Mayor of Toronto acknowledging that the city is not an island and indeed its economic future is very much interlinked with those of its suburbs. So scolding Tory for having the temerity to have a line that terminates outside the city is beyond absurd to me.
Metrolinx - the guys doing the job Toronto couldn't care less about - are doing a large-scale study of how to relieve the Yonge line and the DRL is one of several solutions but the entire point of the whole enterprise is that the DRL provides REGIONAL relief because those annoying People from Markham are riding the subway anyway, crowding out people who want to get on further south. Giving those foreigners different transit options for getting into downtown is precisely the point of building a transit network.
I'm not going to defend every aspect of how Tory has done SmartTrack because it's definitely, obviously flawed, but at the broad level it is essentially the RER plan Metrolinx is already working on which, yes, uses GO's train lines. Whether it comes to be as a GO project or TTC or something else remains to be seen but it's not like he totally pulled the plan out of his ass, like Doug's subways.
As for Eglinton, I'm aware of the Richview corridor. I'll just say what I just said: Tory's SmartTrack isn't going to happen as presented because even if Toronto council votes to move forward with it, it's Metrolinx's rail lines so they'll almost certainly be the lead on it. I don't think any mayoral candidates should be talking about anything other than buses anyway, because they effectively can't build or fund any of these crazy lines-on-a-map plans they're devising. I hate the whole charade, sincerely. But since the core essence of Tory's plan is already happening, I'm not worried about being "too charitable," and I nearly take offence at the notion that it extending a stop or two into the 905 is somehow a further strike against it.
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WislaHD
Superstar
Further, many many people in the 416 commute to work in the 905, so I fail to see the problem with having our transit lines terminate in the 905.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
Um, how was that pile succinct? I often wish for a character limit here on UT.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
I do it every day, Cabbagetown to Markham, takes about 40 mins in my car. Why would I want to give that up for two hours in transit?
nfitz
Superstar
If the trip however only took 30 minutes from GO Unionville to GO Gerrard that run every 15 minutes, and the DVP and 404 continue to degrade so it takes an hour to drive some days ...
TonyV
Senior Member
It's looking like all four major journals / tabloids etc. are endorsing John Tory for mayor. The Post is going about it in a strange sort of way, gotta say.
Anyway, take that, DuhFo.
Anyway, take that, DuhFo.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Because they clog up our streets in the process. And that concerns me. You ever seen rush hour traffic on Markham Rd? And most of that is not Malvern commuters.
This flawed, piecemeal thinking is what got us into this mess. I'm so glad that Metrolinx is slowly starting to gain the authority to sort it out.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Two hours? No. But would you consider 1 hr in transit instead of 40 mins of stressful rush hour (counter-peak flow) driving? Surely you would.
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
Educating people who don't understand the way things are supposed to work in this region is kind of a passion or hobby of mine. I'll work on the brevity thing
Even if Admiral Beez wouldn't, the larger point is that someone else would. If there's only one way to get somewhere, everyone takes it because they have to. If there are options, some people will take Option A and others will take Option B. If more people take transit and Admiral Beez stays in his car, it means his drive gets easier (or, more likely, doesn't get much worse as more people come on the road when space opens, but still...)
Either way, the whole point is that we're trying to devise a transit system - an actual network that's coordinated and affordable and seamless - that allows people to make trips like that in less than 2 hours. If SmartTrack were built, there's no way it would take 2 hours do to that trip. (SmartTrack aside, Metrolinx's RER plan will make sure of the same thing).
Anyway, my broader point stands:
-Mayoral candidates shouldn't be allowed to say anything about transit plans
-If you're going look at the half-assed plans we do have before us now, Tory shouldn't be attacked for piggy-backing on an existing provincial plan and Chow praised for ignoring. Both of their deeply-flawed plans have merits.
JGHali
Active Member
Because the 905 does not fund the TTC. As for SmartTrack, given that it is nothing more than GO RER with a stupid name and an unrealistic and unnecessary number of stations running parallel to the BD extension, it is not clear why city revenues should be (apparently) funding it exclusively.
People in Markham are welcome to take GO downtown. There is much to be said for a regionally integrated transit strategy, but the kind of one-off, poorly thought out SmarkTrack proposals do not serve this. Does Tory support The Big Move 2.0?
Seems rather pretentious to presume to think that you were "educating" me.
Tory spent the first half of the campaign criticizing Chow for not being sufficiently supportive of the DRL, then flip-flopped into his SmartTrack plan, which entails GO RER mediated through a map-on-a-napkin with unworkable financing. Now he doesn't even list the DRL amongst his "top" priorities (SmartTrack and the BD extension). He also completely backtracked on his earlier calls - as head of CivicAction - for revenue tools for transit funding, now favouring what could best be described as "speculative" TIF sources.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Let's see Chow's preferred DRL alignment and costing plan.
SmartTrack certainly isn't perfect. But I find it unsual that the other candidates get nearly a total pass on their transit plans....