Northern Light
Superstar
The slides/panels from the meeting are here:
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The slides/panels from the meeting are here:
ssiguy2
Senior Member
BTW, what is the plan for roughly Gould to Dupont. Is it going to remain the same pedestrian unfriendly dump that it is now or will this require yet another 20 year Royal Commission?
evanb
New Member
I don't think the people clamoring for increased pedestrianization should be admonished for being outspoken. So much time has passed since this project was initiated with relatively little progress, it's not surprising that public opinion has moved since the first consultations took place 7-8 years ago.
It is the job of the public to make their views heard and to demand better of our public infrastructure, especially when a project has been as painfully slow as this one. It is the job of public servants to take the public's feedback and make choices based on what is possible, given the real constraints of process, budget, etc. There are many ways to be responsive to the public's calls for increased pedestrianization without derailing the project further or starting from scratch.
A bigger issue I fear, rather than the public being too outspoken in a way that derails the project, is the city giving too much weight the views of nearby businesses (who can never seem to grasp the benefits of increased pedestrianization to their businesses) over the broad public, and watering down most pedestrianization as a result. Like what happened in Kensington Market.
Northern Light
Superstar
Right, I'm with you, except that in the real world, we can't even push Kensington through, (I'm trying)....
But a progressive area, with lots of pedestrians and relatively few drivers, that's well served by transit, and the project was barely 2 blocks.........and still it got spiked, and that with the most pro-transit, pro-cycling, pro-pedestrian, Green Party vote on Council as its representative.
Yonge is not going to be fully pedestrianized at this point.
As I noted, Dave Meslin, who is a friend, who I like and respect, went against my advice and successfully pushed for cycle tracks on Jarvis, only to see them pulled back out within a few years.
You have to be able to count votes, understand how influence moves inside City Hall and know when you're picking a hill to die on (proverbially) and all your getting out of it is dying.
To shift the narrative requires moving things in that direction where there is less opposition or more political willingness to push through it.
afransen
Senior Member
I think we should take a lane reduction and traffic calming of Yonge, along with substantial public realm improvements, as a win for now. Once people see how much better it is, they may start to care more about Yonge St and that could push for further improvements in future. Weekend road closures, summer road closures, etc.
TwoWheelPoli
Active Member
Flat out disagree. The City already chickened out once before with Kensington Market. We can't allow that to happen again. This is a once in a generation opportunity and we need to make sure we get it right.
afransen
Senior Member
It's risky. If you make it all or nothing, there's a chance we get nothing. If the street reconstruction takes places and replaces like for like we are stuck with the current state for another few decades.
biospherian
Active Member
The way the city is acting as if this mediocre street design for the small section of Yonge is a huge transformation project,
with construction only expected to begin 4 years later shows how broken and inefficient this city is...
I will lose all hope if the sidewalks just turn out to be slightly wider, crude white slabs of concrete they use for the usual condo developments.
with construction only expected to begin 4 years later shows how broken and inefficient this city is...
I will lose all hope if the sidewalks just turn out to be slightly wider, crude white slabs of concrete they use for the usual condo developments.
Northern Light
Superstar
The design isn't final but preliminary assumptions are that there will be added trees, that paving materials will be interlock or like, that there will new seating, and lighting.
I'm nudging the team towards greener and the highest quality pavers./stone, but no guarantees on that.
biospherian
Active Member
Great, thanks.
If you could also push the team to explore better quality road asphalt for this project too, that'd be great.
The city is seeing roads being broken only months after being repaved and it generally turns ugly after a year.
I assume cities like Tokyo, Seoul, NYC, Vancouver use a different mix because they tend to stay black and mostly unbroken years after being paved.
Perhaps we could push for new asphalts for our streets starting with this project.
Northern Light
Superstar
I was rather hoping to talk the team into interlock for the road surface here as well. But we'll see.
I'll have to ask about the asphalt mix quality, not something I've looked into before in much detail.
guavadelic
Active Member
I understand that pragmaticism gets better results in Toronto, but i dislike what it says overall about Toronto. I thought the original proposal that introduced a partial pedestrianization during the day (at least from Gould to Dundas square) and opening it up fully overnight to serve TTC night buses/deliveries striked a pretty good balance. Not being able to even implement that balanced proposal is pretty disappointing. This is Yonge & Dundas not Yonge & Steeles after all. Our North American peers in Montreal and New York have been able to pedestrianize sections of their central streets (even seasonally) and the sky didn't fall.
Toronto would be better served by a city council who strikes a better balance between serving the interests of business groups and the public at large. Because of decisions like this, Toronto continues to be a global city that is governed like a cautious suburb.
afransen
Senior Member
Does it really matter if Toronto Hydro will, within a few months, cut it and fill with asphalt?
Northern Light
Superstar
I get in trouble w/ 1/2 the room for being insufficiently ambitious and the other 1/2 for being insufficiently defeatist. LOL