TTC: Other Items (catch all)

[Bordercollie]

Not exactly a useful comparison, since the Novas have begun to retire after 12 years and thus weren't given a chance to last as long as the Orion VIIs, of which a very big chunk made it to 18.

I don't think they did a heavy rebuild on the Nova's like they did with the Orion VII's? Did they bring it down to the frame?

 

[RapidTransit]

When it comes to high floor buses , for the same 40ft length, they held more people compared to the low floor buses. And I'm pretty sure the Ontario government made some legislation for transit systems to order only low floor buses.

TTC has unique spec as do mNy transit systems, and as mentioned before, NYC has way harder roads and demand. So if a bus can survive NYC, then surely they can survive Toronto.

One thing is for sure, TTC has never really like artics.
Personally the nova buses are the worst rides I've experienced since TTC has went low floor. With a shorter wheel base, it helps with tight turns, but a rough ride.

But with a recent stop order on the NFI buses, that was also recently lifted in Dec, it could potentially hurt NFI chances in Toronto. Hopefully NFI can redeem themselves.

I recall hearing a rumor years ago that NFI wanted to sue David Gunn or TTC over remarks about their buses. But with NFI being the last bus purchase under David Gunn, I highly doubt that.

One thing I found interesting was the RTS buses TTC got in the 1998 was built in New Mexico, despite Orion being made in Ontario and Nova actually having a plant in Quebec. Not sure how TTC got around that.

 

[Richard White]

One thing is for sure, TTC has never really like artics.
Personally the nova buses are the worst rides I've experienced since TTC has went low floor. With a shorter wheel base, it helps with tight turns, but a rough ride

Rough is an understatement.

One ride over the wheelbase and a chiropractor may be needed.

 

[Bordercollie]

When it comes to high floor buses , for the same 40ft length, they held more people compared to the low floor buses. And I'm pretty sure the Ontario government made some legislation for transit systems to order only low floor buses.

TTC has unique spec as do mNy transit systems, and as mentioned before, NYC has way harder roads and demand. So if a bus can survive NYC, then surely they can survive Toronto.

One thing is for sure, TTC has never really like artics.
Personally the nova buses are the worst rides I've experienced since TTC has went low floor. With a shorter wheel base, it helps with tight turns, but a rough ride.

But with a recent stop order on the NFI buses, that was also recently lifted in Dec, it could potentially hurt NFI chances in Toronto. Hopefully NFI can redeem themselves.

I recall hearing a rumor years ago that NFI wanted to sue David Gunn or TTC over remarks about their buses. But with NFI being the last bus purchase under David Gunn, I highly doubt that.

One thing I found interesting was the RTS buses TTC got in the 1998 was built in New Mexico, despite Orion being made in Ontario and Nova actually having a plant in Quebec. Not sure how TTC got around that.

Why was there a stop order on new flyer?

The new flyer attics are no better as they age. Been to Hamilton lately? They are basically falling apart.

Probably the RTS was in production there and to ramp it up in Quebec would take time. They were horrible to ride on. Almost as bad as an Orion VI.

Weren't the Orion II's a nightmare to work on as well due to the cramped engine compartment.

 

[RapidTransit]

Why was there a stop order on new flyer?

The new flyer attics are no better as they age. Been to Hamilton lately? They are basically falling apart.

Probably the RTS was in production there and to ramp it up in Quebec would take time. They were horrible to ride on. Almost as bad as an Orion VI.

Weren't the Orion II's a nightmare to work on as well due to the cramped engine compartment.

The NFI EV weren't meeting TTCs contractual reliability agreement. And PDI inspections. I also believe it's the reason why TTC is getting 50 more Nova EV in 2027 instead of NFI. It's yet to be known who will win the hybrid order. But I'll bet it's Nova as well.

Orion II is a small bus to begin with, so it's no different than working on a smaller vehicle. Technically all engine compartments are cramped.

In 1998 TTC could have ordered Nova Classics instead of RTS, I believe production might have ended a year prior , but if TTC ordered Classics I'm sure Nova would have honored the request.

But If I recall , Gunn wanted RTS because of his experience in NYC. Despite them being made in the US.

It's been so many years. But I was under the assumption that the province encouraged Orion because they had owned them. But if I recall , Orion was sold when Mike Harris came in. So maybe there wasn't a strict policy with the new administration. Or when TTC ordered the RTS , they had enough funds without needing money from the province?

 

[T3G]

I don't think they did a heavy rebuild on the Nova's like they did with the Orion VII's? Did they bring it down to the frame?

I am not privy to the exact details on what they did to the Novas, but the 12 year lifespan has been a plan for a while, so it would not surprise me if they only did a light refurbishment on them. Why dump all that money on them if they're going to go away in a few years' time?

The work they did on the Orion VIIs was in itself pretty light - the average bus was in and out of the workshops in about 8 days, compared to the GM rebuilds in the 2000s that took about 6 weeks per bus.

 

[RapidTransit]

Rough is an understatement.

One ride over the wheelbase and a chiropractor may be needed.

I've asked some operators how they feel about it, and a lot of them don't like it. A few surprisingly like the Novas. But the majority dislike them. I couldn't be on one for a trip much less an 8-10 hour shift.

 

[RapidTransit]

I am not privy to the exact details on what they did to the Novas, but the 12 year lifespan has been a plan for a while, so it would not surprise me if they only did a light refurbishment on them. Why dump all that money on them if they're going to go away in a few years' time?

The work they did on the Orion VIIs was in itself pretty light - the average bus was in and out of the workshops in about 8 days, compared to the GM rebuilds in the 2000s that took about 6 weeks per bus.

It amazes me how TTC was able to rebuild that many buses in house. It's something you don't hear if TTC doing anymore. I assume now a lot of components are sent out and brought back refurbished, instead of TTC doing it in house

 

[CMQSD402F9011]

When it comes to high floor buses , for the same 40ft length, they held more people compared to the low floor buses. And I'm pretty sure the Ontario government made some legislation for transit systems to order only low floor buses.

TTC has unique spec as do mNy transit systems, and as mentioned before, NYC has way harder roads and demand. So if a bus can survive NYC, then surely they can survive Toronto.

One thing is for sure, TTC has never really like artics.
Personally the nova buses are the worst rides I've experienced since TTC has went low floor. With a shorter wheel base, it helps with tight turns, but a rough ride.

But with a recent stop order on the NFI buses, that was also recently lifted in Dec, it could potentially hurt NFI chances in Toronto. Hopefully NFI can redeem themselves.

I recall hearing a rumor years ago that NFI wanted to sue David Gunn or TTC over remarks about their buses. But with NFI being the last bus purchase under David Gunn, I highly doubt that.

One thing I found interesting was the RTS buses TTC got in the 1998 was built in New Mexico, despite Orion being made in Ontario and Nova actually having a plant in Quebec. Not sure how TTC got around that.

Didn’t NYC MTA had problems with Artics before? It wasn’t until 1996 that they got their first D60HFs basically high floor Artics with wheelchair lifts. Although I wonder what made the MTA to buy D60HFs in the first place? Considered they never had the Ikarus buses or the MAN buses at the time.

 

[Steve X]

When everyone can only keep artics are 12 years, there’s no magic that can allow them to mysteriously keep them running for 18 years. It’s no surprise to anyone that they are near the end of life.

 

[smallspy]

Wouldn’t NYC’s MTA require stainless steel on their buses? I know their climate might be different there. And as for Orion, they never offered any Artic models when they existed. Although I would assume had they did. TTC would’ve been the only customer. Although I do believe it was the III failures that made Orion hesitant to offer any Artics.

MTA uses different specs in their tenders. They have required stainless steel frames in the past, but they have also required that any bus meets a certain threshold of longevity at the Altoona "shaker" testing.

Orion late it its life almost offered bids on a North American-ized Mercedes Citaro articulated bus. They imported one to North America for testing and some demo.

I do recall that MiWay and YRT D40LFs outlived the first TTC Orion VIIs in the last couple of years. With 7400-7881 being built with DDEC S50 EGRs while theirs had Cummins engines. In fact YRT’s D40LFs from 2005-06 outlived the TTC VIIs from 2006-07 to this day. Not sure if both MiWay and YRT D40LFs were built with carbon steel?

The buses of most transit agencies - especially the suburban ones - do not see the same utilization rate that the TTC's buses do. The TTC's would have had far higher mileage and operating hours, even though they were forced to be pulled from service by the Ministry of the Environment.

New Flyer has only offered a partially stainless steel frame, and as a higher-cost option. I don't know of any of the suburban agencies who have bought that option.

One thing I found interesting was the RTS buses TTC got in the 1998 was built in New Mexico, despite Orion being made in Ontario and Nova actually having a plant in Quebec. Not sure how TTC got around that.

Simple - no Federal or Provincial monies were used in that purchase, only Municipal. That's why they could order what they wanted.

I am not privy to the exact details on what they did to the Novas, but the 12 year lifespan has been a plan for a while, so it would not surprise me if they only did a light refurbishment on them. Why dump all that money on them if they're going to go away in a few years' time?

The work they did on the Orion VIIs was in itself pretty light - the average bus was in and out of the workshops in about 8 days, compared to the GM rebuilds in the 2000s that took about 6 weeks per bus.

That's a function of how the buses are built - both in the sense of how well, and in the sense of how easy or hard they are to take apart.

Modern buses are built in a very modular manner, and have multiple sub-assemblies that can be removed and replaced in one fell swoop. Front axle, rear axle, engine cradle, etc. On top of that, the TTC has streamlined the process enough that they have spare sub-assemblies ready to go - a bus that comes in for rebuild has its old sub-assemblies removed and sent out for rework and new set get installed right away, or after a very short delay. As well, panels are designed to come off quickly and easily to allow access to the frame other components hidden in the walls.

The New Looks, on the other hand, had some sub-assemblies for the axles. But the bodies were all fabricated from rivetted steel and aluminum, and so all of the rivets needed to be removed in order to access the frame components for inspection or replacement. And those frame components were made of stamped steel, like a car, so there was less bulk for tinworm to attack. It was just a far, far more laborious job.

For the record, regardless of how long it takes, if a bus goes in for a "full rebuild" it is getting a full rebuild. Frames are inspected and components replaced. Axles, suspension and motors are replaced. A/C replaced. It's a very thorough job.

When everyone can only keep artics are 12 years, there’s no magic that can allow them to mysteriously keep them running for 18 years. It’s no surprise to anyone that they are near the end of life.

It's not that there's no magic - an articulated bus is just another type of bus, all of the components on it can be replaced including the joint.

It's just that on an artic because of the additional costs required to keep them on the road, the scales get weighted more towards a shorter lifespan.

Dan

 

[Bordercollie]

Orion II is a small bus to begin with, so it's no different than working on a smaller vehicle. Technically all engine compartments are cramped.

In 1998 TTC could have ordered Nova Classics instead of RTS, I believe production might have ended a year prior , but if TTC ordered Classics I'm sure Nova would have honored the request.

But If I recall , Gunn wanted RTS because of his experience in NYC. Despite them being made in the US.

It's been so many years. But I was under the assumption that the province encouraged Orion because they had owned them. But if I recall , Orion was sold when Mike Harris came in. So maybe there wasn't a strict policy with the new administration. Or when TTC ordered the RTS , they had enough funds without needing money from the province?

Classic with a 50 series?

MTA uses different specs in their tenders. They have required stainless steel frames in the past, but they have also required that any bus meets a certain threshold of longevity at the Altoona "shaker" testing.

Orion late it its life almost offered bids on a North American-ized Mercedes Citaro articulated bus. They imported one to North America for testing and some demo.


The buses of most transit agencies - especially the suburban ones - do not see the same utilization rate that the TTC's buses do. The TTC's would have had far higher mileage and operating hours, even though they were forced to be pulled from service by the Ministry of the Environment.

New Flyer has only offered a partially stainless steel frame, and as a higher-cost option. I don't know of any of the suburban agencies who have bought that option.


Simple - no Federal or Provincial monies were used in that purchase, only Municipal. That's why they could order what they wanted.


That's a function of how the buses are built - both in the sense of how well, and in the sense of how easy or hard they are to take apart.

Modern buses are built in a very modular manner, and have multiple sub-assemblies that can be removed and replaced in one fell swoop. Front axle, rear axle, engine cradle, etc. On top of that, the TTC has streamlined the process enough that they have spare sub-assemblies ready to go - a bus that comes in for rebuild has its old sub-assemblies removed and sent out for rework and new set get installed right away, or after a very short delay. As well, panels are designed to come off quickly and easily to allow access to the frame other components hidden in the walls.

The New Looks, on the other hand, had some sub-assemblies for the axles. But the bodies were all fabricated from rivetted steel and aluminum, and so all of the rivets needed to be removed in order to access the frame components for inspection or replacement. And those frame components were made of stamped steel, like a car, so there was less bulk for tinworm to attack. It was just a far, far more laborious job.

For the record, regardless of how long it takes, if a bus goes in for a "full rebuild" it is getting a full rebuild. Frames are inspected and components replaced. Axles, suspension and motors are replaced. A/C replaced. It's a very thorough job.


It's not that there's no magic - an articulated bus is just another type of bus, all of the components on it can be replaced including the joint.

It's just that on an artic because of the additional costs required to keep them on the road, the scales get weighted more towards a shorter lifespan.

Dan

How did they add Power Steering to the Fishbowls during rebuild? Did they add a power steering hose from the back of the bus all the way to the steering wheel?

 

[MiExpress]

Wouldn’t NYC’s MTA require stainless steel on their buses? I know their climate might be different there. And as for Orion, they never offered any Artic models when they existed. Although I would assume had they did. TTC would’ve been the only customer. Although I do believe it was the III failures that made Orion hesitant to offer any Artics.

I do recall that MiWay and YRT D40LFs outlived the first TTC Orion VIIs in the last couple of years. With 7400-7881 being built with DDEC S50 EGRs while theirs had Cummins engines. In fact YRT’s D40LFs from 2005-06 outlived the TTC VIIs from 2006-07 to this day. Not sure if both MiWay and YRT D40LFs were built with carbon steel?

A good amount of MiWay D40LF's did last upwards of 18-20 years but it was out of sheer necessity. In order to get that life span most of them had 3 rounds of major structural work to deal with corrosion and other frame failures, as well as multiple engine/transmission replacements.

New Flyer has only offered a partially stainless steel frame, and as a higher-cost option. I don't know of any of the suburban agencies who have bought that option.

Starting with the 2014 model year, the Xcelsior was standardized with the partial stainless steel frame design (lower frame rails and wheel wells constructed of stainless steel and the rest mild steel), and within the last year or two has switched to a fully stainless steel frame on the Xcelsior. However it is ferritic stainless steel and not 304 grade as seen on Orion VIIs and Nova LFS.

 

[smallspy]

Starting with the 2014 model year, the Xcelsior was standardized with the partial stainless steel frame design (lower frame rails and wheel wells constructed of stainless steel and the rest mild steel), and within the last year or two has switched to a fully stainless steel frame on the Xcelsior. However it is ferritic stainless steel and not 304 grade as seen on Orion VIIs and Nova LFS.

Ahh, I was not aware that New Flyer made those changes. Thanks for that.

Dan

 

[RapidTransit]

Classic with a 50 series?

Yup, after 1995, S50s were available for the Classic. A few Quebec agencies and in the US have Classics with S50. Some even have CAT engine.

Personally a Classic with a S50 ain't the same. But I'm weird like that. I prefer the 6v92TA.

I believe the last year of the 6v92 was 1998. And possibly marine application till the early 2000s.