Alto - High Speed Rail (Toronto-Quebec City)

[kEiThZ]

Interesting that the language has changed from maximum speed of 300km/h to “speeds in excess of 300 kilometres an hour”

I suspect the consortium is pushing for higher speeds than originally planned by the crown corporation.

In my mind 350km/h would be “world class” HSR as of 2026. However, by 2037 I suspect 400km/h operation speeds will be the leading edge of HSR technology. China is planning to put the CR450 into service this year, which is designed to operate at 400km/h with top speed of 450km/h.

Physics and finances limit speeds substantially. I wouldn't expect 400 kph. Maybe 350 kph. And they are stating this because it makes no sense to stick to 300 kph. They will optimize for the fastest design that they can afford (close a business case on). That may have say a 50 - 100 km stretch where they can do 350 kph. No sense limiting that artificially.

 

[micheal_can]

The demand between Ottawa and Montreal would skyrocket with the proposed travel times too. Makes zero sense not to have express trains stop in Ottawa and have pax swap out.

Discussions about bypassing Ottawa just show how ignorant Canadian railfans can be. Who the hell would build a line costing tens of billions and not to stop in one of the largest metros in the country, second largest metro in the province and national capital? Skipping Peterborough on some runs? Maybe? Ottawa? No. I would be surprised if there's a single Toronto-Montreal train that skips Ottawa.

No difference than suggesting an express Quebec City - Ottawa train not stopping in Montreal. T-O-M-QC will be the express.

 

[crs1026]

I would be surprised if there's a single Toronto-Montreal train that skips Ottawa.

This one will be fun to watch. I bet there are pendulums at play here.

Logically, one might sell out an entire peak period trainset for Ottawa and another for Montreal. Would they run them 15 minutes apart, or MU them together and possibly save the cost of one driver? Or run two trains 30 mins apart and sell half trainsets for each destination? I bet there may be some of each.

My immediate reaction was, I wonder if every London-Edinburgh train stops at York. So I fact checked. Some run through. No bypass needed, they just pass through the depot.... but interestingly, the through runs (which boast the fastest end to end timing) do stop at some smaller towns that one might think are more deserving of stopping trains. Kind of like having the train that doesn't stop at Ottawa make a stop at Tweed. I bet the dwell at those stops is de minimus, and maybe trading off a small number of passengers is not a problem in the overall loading. Odd, but that's the reality.

- Paul

 

[crs1026]

Physics and finances limit speeds substantially. I wouldn't expect 400 kph. Maybe 350 kph. And they are stating this because it makes no sense to stick to 300 kph. They will optimize for the fastest design that they can afford (close a business case on). That may have say a 50 - 100 km stretch where they can do 350 kph. No sense limiting that artificiall

We are still at the copywriter stage. 300 kph =186.411 mi/hr which is a bit of an odd number. Call it "in excess of 300 kph" and you get to 200 mph without the awkward math and rounding.
I would be concerned about pushing the envelope unless someone has run those trains in our winters and summers. I can live with 300 km/h, and I agree some segments will be faster than others. Let somebody else prove that 400 is reliably doable first. Get it built faster with what we (we meaning our consortium) know well already.

- Paul

 

[McGillicuddy]

It feels a little silly to be getting so deep into speculation about a hypothetical future service that won't exist to be scheduled until the 2040s.

But as a matter of administration, if you're confident that you can fill the seats on a Toronto <-> Montreal express service, there's no business reason to have it stop anywhere else.

There may be contractual or political reasons to do so, and this is perfectly legitimate with a project that is substantially backed by the state. But, yes, I would expect ALTO to press for a couple of express runs that cut out Ottawa.

I would not expect similar pressure for Ottawa <-> Quebec City, because the business case for such a run is less clear.

 

[kEiThZ]

Departures from 7 AM to 7 PM?

Hypothetical 25 departures per day, per direction:

0600 - 1000 Every 30 mins.
1100 - 1400 Every hour.
1500 - 1900 Every 30 mins.
2000 - 2200 Every hour.

 

[Voltz]

The sooner the alignment is finalized and publicly known the sooner we can stop with all this Ottawa bypass talk.


There's almost as much travel demand to Ottawa as there is to Montreal. Express trains will almost certainly serve Ottawa just as they serve Toronto and Montreal.

I don’t hear cries of neglect about Montreal trains going nowhere near Ottawa now, a few peak ALTO express trains bypassing Ottawa is no different.

If service is frequent enough and demand high enough then what is the point of making a few trains full of Montreal-Toronto passengers taking the slow route through Ottawa instead of a potential high speed bypass of the city? It can be left to be built later anyway if required.

 

[kEiThZ]

I don’t hear cries of neglect about Montreal trains going nowhere near Ottawa now, a few peak ALTO express trains bypassing Ottawa is no different.

If service is frequent enough and demand high enough then what is the point of making a few trains full of Montreal-Toronto passengers taking the slow route through Ottawa instead of a potential high speed bypass of the city? It can be left to be built later anyway if required.

The current business model leases track slots. Any bypass would require literal billions to build and maintain said infrastructure. For what? Save a marginal amount of time for a marginal amount of passengers? Scope creep like this would kill this thing.

 

[roger1818]

With all the concerns about how to get the train to Union, along with criticism that Alto isn't extending into south-western Ontario, why not bypass Toronto altogether and use the money saved to extend the train to Windsor? The train could head east from Ottawa to Washago (where connections could be made to the Northlander) and then down to London.

(remove tongue cheek)

 

[reinventingthewheel]

With all the concerns about how to get the train to Union, along with criticism that Alto isn't extending into south-western Ontario, why not bypass Toronto altogether and use the money saved to extend the train to Windsor? The train could head east from Ottawa to Washago (where connections could be made to the Northlander) and then down to London.

(remove tongue cheek)

Some absolute nutter on here is going to run with this idea! You still have time to delete this!

 

[nfitz]

Discussions about bypassing Ottawa just show how ignorant Canadian railfans can be.

Perhaps you are unaware of this, but serious discussion here about bypassing Ottawa only started when VIA and the Feds published a figure for HFR showing exactly that - on what appears to be the Winchester Sub. While that might have made some sense to help the problem of HFR operations not attracting enough ridership when they were just adding track in the middle of nowhere along existing tracks - the economics fall apart once you get into the current HSR plan using HST; not to mention that from the open house locations, they aren't planning to go from Ottawa to Montreal coming anywhere near the Winchester sub, but instead leaving on the old CP M&O sub and bridging the Ottawa River.

Even with the current non-bypass plan, nothing precludes adding a bypass to save a few minutes in 50 or 100 years if there's demand to support it.

With all the concerns about how to get the train to Union ...

Are there a lot of concerns, outside of us geeks? Central and/or Lucien L'Allier are the issue - there's 2 or 3 relatively simple options for Toronto.

 

[crs1026]

Perhaps you are unaware of this, but serious discussion here about bypassing Ottawa only started when VIA and the Feds published a figure for HFR showing exactly that - on what appears to be the Alexandra Sub. While that might have made some sense to help the problem of HFR operations not attracting enough ridership when they were just adding track in the middle of nowhere along existing tracks - the economics fall apart once you get into the current HSR plan using HST; not to mention that from the open house locations, they aren't planning to go from Ottawa to Montreal coming anywhere near the Alexandra sub, but instead leaving on the old CP M&O sub and bridging the Ottawa River.

Nitpick - I think you meant a bypass on the Winchester Sub to avoid Ottawa?

That idea was fine at the time (sort of, barely.....possibly desperation because the projected HFR T-M trip time via Ottawa wasn't selling), when HFR was portrayed as a conventional speed railway that didn't require grade separation. But consider the added cost of duplicating grade separations on both routes to achieve HSR.

Ottawa clearly moved the goalposts when they shifted from HFR to Alto, but that doesn't mean the budget is limitless. For obvious reasons of cost and scope control, one route is all the country can afford.... and we haven't heard the final cost projection for even that yet.

- Paul

 

[kEiThZ]

Perhaps you are unaware of this, but serious discussion here about bypassing Ottawa only started when VIA and the Feds published a figure for HFR showing exactly that

That was for when HFR projected to be 4 hrs from Toronto to Montreal. Now Alto says 3 hrs for the same. What do they need the bypass for? Will saving 15 mins on 3 hrs really create enough demand to justify that extra infrastructure and operating costs?

 

[nfitz]

That was for when HFR projected to be 4 hrs from Toronto to Montreal. Now Alto says 3 hrs for the same. What do they need the bypass for? Will saving 15 mins on 3 hrs really create enough demand to justify that extra infrastructure and operating costs?

I'm simply pointing out the origin of the discussion. Which is moot now because of the change in routing through ... St. Eustache (how the eff that will work I don't know). And as I pointed out, the reduced return (negative I'd think) on investment.

 

[generalcanada]

Construction on Toronto-Quebec City leg of high-speed rail line slated for 2032: CEO

The CEO of a planned high-speed rail project between Toronto and Quebec City says construction on that leg of the line is expected to begin by 2032.

www.cp24.com

theyre already planning for the toronto and quebec city legs. I guess expecting it to take about 2 years?