Finch West Line 6 LRT

[Northern Light]

why the hell are they doing a study???
Just make the change then study it.

Maybe you should better understand what's happening prior to commenting.

There will be a tightening of the Finch schedule no later than the March board period. You can't make additional staff appear out of nowhere.

There is no 'study' on the parts that are easy to change, those within the purview of TTC Service Planning and Operations.

They will report on what they are doing and have done.

There is some study required (not a formal 3rd party study) but staff modelling to figure out what turn restrictions to put in place, their impacts, and how to mitigate them

If you remove a left turn, demand for that traffic movement doesn't away; those cars will go left somewhere else, and create a longer queue etc etc.

You need to have some idea what will happen before you do it.

Other items such as aggressive TSP, and changes in door operations need to be trained for;

There's no excuse for the way Finch is being run, no argument it doesn't need to be run better, faster and soon.

But it isn't a snap of the fingers thing.

Maybe the city should have used all that time they were bitching at Metrolinx about an opening date they should have been studying TSP so that it would be implemented while test started.

Maybe you should understand what was said in those meetings and why before throwing people you've never met or talked to under the proverbial tram.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I only recall two options - as it was eventually built, and an underground alignment with no station at Leslie.

When did they suggest a south-side surface option?

Dan

You are right - I was misremembering. Thanks for the correction. The south side thing came from people saying that is what should have been done to avoid the intersection.

The Ontario Line is years behind schedule, and wildly over budget. You haven't even begun to hear the extent of the problems.

All that for a project that will be over capacity early its life, sigh.

***

Metrolinx are a poorly run organization, pushing a bad idea (P3s) and then hiding behind confidentiality built-in not to protect the contractor, but instead Mx officials from endless embarrassment.

Case and point - Metrolinx has already spent more on the Ontario Line then they spent on the Crosstown.. and they identify the $29 billion budget as "not reflective if the full project cost", and are burning almost a billion dollars a quarter on the line right now:

I will disagree on the line being over capacity early in it's life however. We've had long conversations about why the OLs design is fine and despite Metrolinx's mismanagement, it would have been an even more bloated project if it had been designed for marginally higher capacities.

 

[mrgrieves]

When is the election and who's running against Chow?

Google it.

 

[FW36]

Theoretically if the Finch West lrt in toronto was given priority signal, closed 3 stations (stevenson, duncanwoods, and driftwood), and traveled just 45 km per hour it would be able to complete the journey in 25 minutes which would be more reasonable than today. Plus in the future if the Finch West LRT line is integrated to a future Bolton Go Train at Emery and Woodbine Go station it could still serve the majority with fast local trips but used to get people downtown or surrounding cities faster. As currently designed finch west lrt is bad , but it's not impossible to fix in the short or long term

 

[urbanclient]

I will disagree on the line being over capacity early in it's life however. We've had long conversations about why the OLs design is fine and despite Metrolinx's mismanagement, it would have been an even more bloated project if it had been designed for marginally higher capacities.

A lot of people here are optimistic about these things and that's great. I think a positive attitude is better than a negative attitude everyday. But looking into any underlying numbers makes you question if the demand projections weren't underestimates for both Line 3 and Line 5. And consequently the maximum future capacity would be inadequate. Don't let Line 6 fool you, it arguably never should've gotten a tram. Post-covid bus ridership on Finch West is lower than other bus corridors.

Moreover, the trend outside of CANUSA is to adopt ever larger capacity on new lines. Only in Toronto and New York do we see Eglinton, Ontario Line, IBX with smaller rolling stock and platforms than the existing network. I am not saying there was no future proofing done. I am saying there wasn't enough done. It's not a matter of if [Lines 3 & 5, and IBX] will reach overcapacity, but when.

 

[Thaboss]

What really drives this is the underlying attitude that the outer boroughs don’t “count” as real Toronto. The city centre gets treated as the city, while everywhere else is managed cheaply. When it’s the centre, subways are justified, disruption is acceptable, and costs are worth it. When it’s the outer areas, suddenly LRTs, compromises, and “good enough” solutions are pushed instead

The issue is hardly with the technology. LRTs can be a fantadtic solution if implemented correctly.

However, ironically, part of the problem is suburban politics which prioritize car comfort to good urban design that would allow for proper road design to favour rappid lrt operations.

Also you talk of elevated transit. I agree this would be fantastic. But do you know where elevated tracks are probably the least politically palatable in toronto ?

 

[Kyle Campbell]

What I don't understand is, ignoring TSP, why is it so much slower than the bus. The bus has to wait at all the lights too. You'd expect it to be a bit slower all things being equal because unlike a bus a train stops at every stop

Even the whole wheel bearing fear. Ottawa runs the same trains much faster through far more curves they aren't being this excessively cautious

 

[robmausser]

What really drives this is the underlying attitude that the outer boroughs don’t “count” as real Toronto. The city centre gets treated as the city, while everywhere else is managed cheaply. When it’s the centre, subways are justified, disruption is acceptable, and costs are worth it. When it’s the outer areas, suddenly LRTs, compromises, and “good enough” solutions are pushed instead.

Lol dumbest take ever. There just isn't the density or population outside the downtown to justify a subway its that simple. And there never will be in 100 years.

 

[Thaboss]

What I don't understand is, ignoring TSP, why is it so much slower than the bus. The bus has to wait at all the lights too. You'd expect it to be a bit slower all things being equal because unlike a bus a train stops at every stop

Even the whole wheel bearing fear. Ottawa runs the same trains much faster through far more curves they aren't being this excessively cautious

Ottawa is fully grade separated for one. If anything ottawa moves too slow for how well its been grade separated lol

Finch west lights turn red earlier than the adjacent streetlights, including when transit is given a left turn light.

Finch trains stops are right after lights and dwell times at those stations are very long.

The trains are being run at extremely slow speeds to avoid aggressive acceleration and breaking.

Watch videos of finch leaving finch west station. Nowhere on earth would a bus move that slowly.


Its a basic math problem really. An extra min here and there and next thing you know its been 20 extra min.

 

[robmausser]

What I don't understand is, ignoring TSP, why is it so much slower than the bus. The bus has to wait at all the lights too. You'd expect it to be a bit slower all things being equal because unlike a bus a train stops at every stop

Smartest person in the room here.

Thank you for pointing out the obvious. All this attention on TSP, and its great, because TSP is needed on this line, like 6, and the streetcars 509, 510, 512.

But, I cant wait for the shocked pikachu faces when the line 6 LRT is still slow after full TSP is implemented.

And as this very intelligent person just pointed out, its staring right in our faces this whole time.

THE BUSES ARE FASTER THAN THE LRT WITHOUT TSP. That means TSP is not the issue.

The issue is that the LRV's are being driven too slowly. TSP will not fix this problem.

Its like giving your grandma all green lights at all the intersections. Shes still driving 35kmh, you aint getting anywhere fast.

The LRTs need to be driven faster. Thats it.

 

[Thaboss]

The LRTs need to be driven faster

They're looking into both TSP and speeds of the train.

Voices that matter have been demanding improvements in both...

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Smartest person in the room here.

Thank you for pointing out the obvious. All this attention on TSP, and its great, because TSP is needed on this line, like 6, and the streetcars 509, 510, 512.

But, I cant wait for the shocked pikachu faces when the line 6 LRT is still slow after full TSP is implemented.

And as this very intelligent person just pointed out, its staring right in our faces this whole time.

THE BUSES ARE FASTER THAN THE LRT WITHOUT TSP. That means TSP is not the issue.

The issue is that the LRV's are being driven too slowly. TSP will not fix this problem.

Its like giving your grandma all green lights at all the intersections. Shes still driving 35kmh, you aint getting anywhere fast.

The LRTs need to be driven faster. Thats it.

TSP is still an issue even if it is not the only issue.

But yeah if light rail vehicles cannot reach the desired speeds on this line, then we should just send the vehicles to the Hurontario line and use the corridor for buses. The bus drivers will floor it between stations and maybe we would get the desired speeds of rapid transit on Finch.

 

[Admiral Beez]

They're looking into both TSP and speeds of the train.

It's so stupid that this wasn't part of the roll out. Two rules should have been in place from day one.

1. No LRT will ever be stopped (or even slowed) at an intersection by an automobile traffic signal. When the LRT is approaching, the light cycles to green. Of course there are exceptions for emergencies. And I appreciate this is easier for far side stops (which every stop should be).
2. No LRT will be delayed by left turning traffic or pedestrian crossings. Left turning vehicles and pedestrians will have to wait until the LRT has passed, or no left turns allowed whatsoever.

That's it you dummies at city hall, TTC and Metrolinx. Do this and those Finch cars can zoom at 50-60 kph.

 

[Voltz]

I'm curious to know what the TSP on Finch is capable of if fully turned on, would it just slightly extend green times or can it detect a LRV far enough away to give it a green light 95% of the time?

 

[urbanclient]

Lol dumbest take ever. There just isn't the density or population outside the downtown to justify a subway its that simple. And there never will be in 100 years.

You're jumping to conclusions afaik. Very few, if any, are advocating for a 10+ km subway on Finch West. We're incredulous at the wasted money for next to 0 ROI in terms of social benefit per $ spent. The 36 buses are jam packed while few ride the LRT. The waste from the overbuiltness of the line: the cavernously deep descent from the new Finch West LRT entrance etc... The money blown here could've been saved up for higher ROI projects like more subways closer to downtown. Finch West doesn't have the ridership to warrant an LRT in Toronto's austerity context, despite dozens of people regurgitating the same talking points they heard from the internet. There are other, more deserving corridors that should've gotten transit improvements before a single dime was spent on Finch West a full 20 km away from Downtown as the crow flies. Not to mention the tons of CO2 emissions that went into building this white elephant that will likely never be recouped for hundreds of years, even if the 36 were replaced entirely.

Fall 2023 bus corridor weekday ridership:
1. — 39 Finch East + 939 Finch Express, 46,000
2. — 29 Dufferin + 929 Dufferin Express, 42,100
3. — 52 Lawrence West + 952 Lawrence West Express, 40,000
4. — 35 Jane + 935 Jane Express, 38,800
5. — 25 Don Mills + 925 Don Mills Express, 38,000
6. — 96 Wilson + 996 Wilson Express, 36,000
7. — 54 Lawrence East + 954 Lawrence East Express, 35,600
8. — 36 Finch West, 35,500

Notice anything here? Basically all the other bus corridors have higher population densities.