Alto - High Speed Rail (Toronto-Quebec City)

[micheal_can]

I actually pondered this as well. Laval has a stop and I think Scarborough should get a stop somewhere near the 401 and Line 4 extension, it's on the way. Allowing those from North York and Scarborough, as well as people from York Region access the line without traveling downtown. After all, VIA does stop at Guildwood.

Guildwood is a stop for Via, but not every Via train stops at it. I see ALTO doing that. I am thinking once it is up and running the whole length that there will be the majority of trains that only stop at the 4 major cities of Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal,and Quebec City. There will be some trains that stop at all of them, or ore of them based on various factors.

I am wondering if all trains are end to end trains, or will they have some that are segmented?

 

[kEiThZ]

As

Because at this point in time it’s not on the map. Of course things can change but Laval was always part of the plan and for Toronto currently it isn’t. It’s puzzling Laval a priority being the only suburb included in the project so far.

It's not puzzling at all. As explained several times here (that you keep ignoring), it's en route. It would be foolish to ignore a city of half a million that they are passing through. It would be equally foolish if the line was going through Mississauga and had no stop.

It’s possible it’s because they have not made the decision where the 2nd station would be, if any, however I would advertise Toronto (2) if this is the case. From the information we know so far I have to assume only one stop for Toronto versus two for Montréal.

It's a good thing project planning doesn't cater to rail nerds. They'll decide where stations will go based on ridership projections and financials. And if there's enough demand for GTA East (as some of us think) it'll happen.

 

[416InTrouble]

Whatever I kept saying about Toronto-Montreal Express services skipping Ottawa also applies to Ottawa-Quebec services skipping Montreal:

• The combined ridership of the to-be-skipped cities exceeds those of the city to be skipped: (TO+OM)>TM or (OM+MQ)>OQ
• The ridership for trains skipping cities like Ottawa or Montreal is too small to fill entire trains
• Having trains skip cities like Ottawa and Montreal will always make you lose more passengers than you could ever gain by cutting 10-20 off travel time for markets like TM or OQ

The fatal fault of Ottawa’s VIA station is not the ease of transfers into downtown Ottawa, but its substandard integration into Ottawa’s existing transit networks: If they had consolidated at least one of the two nearby transit hubs (Hurdman or Saint-Laurent) at Tremblay Road, it would have at least some relevance as a destination in its own right. If you look across the world, those intercity rail stations which also act as non-rail hubs tend to prosper, while those nobody ever visits for any other reason than taking an intercity train tend to fail. Ottawa clearly falls into the second category. One LRT line and a taxi stand makes no mobility hub, after all.

That said, ALTO stopping at Tremblay Road would simply match the Status Quo, whereas moving the ALTO stop away from where VIA Rail currently serves Montreal or Toronto would represent a massive inconvenience added…


The REM went in just 2 years from the public reveal of any details to construction and we already started discussing the need of $10+billion tunnels solely caused by the refusal of its promoters to consider anything beyond their narrow mandate multiple years before even the first passenger travelled (this month) through the Mont-Royal Tunnel. If you want more such insanity, then haste for the sake of haste is indeed your best friend…


We really need to stop calling “having made estimations which turned out to be overoptimistic” as “lies”. I find any attempt to quantify costs more honest than the federal minister of Transportation yesterday who basically refused to name even a rough range for fear that he might have his name associated with that figure…

Yes but a project that turns out to be 3x more than estimated is either a lie or ineptitude at its highest order. We would all be fired for understating the cost of a project so egregiously that one can only surmise that it was lying or wilful negligence which is akin to lying.

 

[canucks2030]

As


It's not puzzling at all. As explained several times here (that you keep ignoring), it's en route. It would be foolish to ignore a city of half a million that they are passing through. It would be equally foolish if the line was going through Mississauga and had no stop.



It's a good thing project planning doesn't cater to rail nerds. They'll decide where stations will go based on ridership projections and financials. And if there's enough demand for GTA East (as some of us think) it'll happen.

So why it’s not foolish to ignore Toronto suburbs also en route and bigger than Laval something I have pointed out many time (that you keep ignoring). Scarborough and Durham region both bigger than Laval and not on the initial map when Laval was included even going back to February.

Something some people here seem to be ignoring from my posts it’s the fact Laval the only suburb included, this is why I am puzzled when Toronto has bigger suburbs and a much bigger metropolis. If Laval included why not a suburb in Toronto? And please do not tell me it’s because Toronto doesn’t have other major suburb also en route.

 

[MisterF]

It's odd, people talk about a station in the suburbs as if every train has to stop there, which is clearly not the case. It's clear that a lot of people saying adding stations slows down trains aren't all that familiar with how high speed rail networks actually operate. Or even Via Rail for that matter. There are any number of stopping patterns that could be used, including trains that don't stop at a suburban station just like not every Via train stops at Guildwood. You can even have slower regional trains sharing tracks with faster intercity trains. A station in the east GTA suburbs makes perfect sense.

You could do a really nice 4 hour streetcar ride along there but that's about it.

Hey now, let's not bring the Finch LRT into this.

 

[bpbpbpbp]

As


It's not puzzling at all. As explained several times here (that you keep ignoring), it's en route. It would be foolish to ignore a city of half a million that they are passing through. It would be equally foolish if the line was going through Mississauga and had no stop.



It's a good thing project planning doesn't cater to rail nerds. They'll decide where stations will go based on ridership projections and financials. And if there's enough demand for GTA East (as some of us think) it'll happen.

Presumably Ontario West HSR is going to go through Brampton towards Kitchener and London but I’d be shocked if it gets a stop, when it easily has a million people (unofficially, and maybe more). I guess a Pearson stop would serve it but that would require the diversion and would still be far. So idk if Mississauga gets a stop.

 

[McGillicuddy]

It's a good thing project planning doesn't cater to rail nerds. They'll decide where stations will go based on ridership projections and financials. And if there's enough demand for GTA East (as some of us think) it'll happen.

I think that's overstating the case. The real decision here isn't made by an economist: it's made by a cabinet minister, and these ministers are not uniformly responsive to data or best practices.

A station in Laval has logistical upside: it's useful to have a station at points where lines converge, allowing for transfers without necessarily needing to reach the terminal. It also provides them with a backup connection point in the event that they are temporarily unable to run services to a downtown station. (Due to renovations or maintenance or whatever.)

But it also has political upside. In Quebec's provincial politics, Laval is one of the most contentious regions, and an area of particular interest to the incumbent CAQ government. Federally, Laval usually, but not always, breaks for the Liberals: it's perhaps not the highest priority for federal pork, but it's not unthinkable they'd plant some there, either.

And as we've seen with Metrolinx, it's not unusual for this political interest to motivate agencies to cut economic rationales from whole cloth.

 

[nfitz]

Ignorance on all sides. You said Québec lack meaningful regional rail to justify a stop in Laval but Laval has three subway stations, EXO and now the REM. You also said Laval just happens to be on the way to Montreal. Toronto has suburbs too alongs the way to downtown Toronto. So why Laval so special? At first you said it’s not meant as regional rail and then you justify Laval being included because from your perspective Quebec lack meaningful regional rail.

I'm wondering how often you've taken the metro from Montmorency to Bonaventure!

Also, REM in Laval? While it's technically true that there's a single REM station on Île Jésus - it's kind of like saying that the 401 serves Hamilton, because the 401 passes within 300 metres of the northwest corner of Hamilton!

I'm not sure the issue here. There's going to be a suburban stop in Montreal; there always was. And one in Toronto. (who knows, maybe more than one for either).

 

[kEiThZ]

So why it’s not foolish to ignore Toronto suburbs also en route

It is you who are saying they're ignoring suburbs en route. Until the list of stations comes out, I am not sure where you are getting the certainty to make that declaration. The list that Alto provided is not a list of stations. It's a list of cities to be served.

 

[ARG1]

I'm wondering how often you've taken the metro from Montmorency to Bonaventure!

Also, REM in Laval? While it's technically true that there's a single REM station on Île Jésus - it's kind of like saying that the 401 serves Hamilton, because the 401 passes within 300 metres of the northwest corner of Hamilton!

I'm not sure the issue here. There's going to be a suburban stop in Montreal; there always was. And one in Toronto. (who knows, maybe more than one for either).

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Ye, its actually a running joke in Greater Montreal politics how it seems like Laval always gets screwed over when it comes to any form of transit plans, whether its Laval asking for the Expo 67 minirail for use in its transit plans (which they were denied), or it taking forever for the Orange Line to be built (and even then its a stub), and even the REM barely skirts by Laval. The SJ line is genuinely the only major form of transit Laval has, and even then its not particularly great.

Even the Mascouche Line kinda looks like it does everything in its power to purposefully not serve Laval.

 

[kEiThZ]

Presumably Ontario West HSR is going to go through Brampton towards Kitchener and London but I’d be shocked if it gets a stop, when it easily has a million people (unofficially, and maybe more). I guess a Pearson stop would serve it but that would require the diversion and would still be far. So idk if Mississauga gets a stop.

That's more a question of stop spacing. Brampton is just too close to the airport to warrant a stop. Especially when that rider can take GO from Brampton on the same corridor and connect to HSR at Pearson or Union going East and Guelph or Kitchener going West.

It's odd, people talk about a station in the suburbs as if every train has to stop there, which is clearly not the case. It's clear that a lot of people saying adding stations slows down trains aren't all that familiar with how high speed rail networks actually operate. Or even Via Rail for that matter. There are any number of stopping patterns that could be used, including trains that don't stop at a suburban station just like not every Via train stops at Guildwood. You can even have slower regional trains sharing tracks with faster intercity trains. A station in the east GTA suburbs makes perfect sense.

Honestly, I can't see express services early on. Suburban stops don't add much to the schedule since the train is running slower anyway. At worst we're talking about adding GTA East, Fallowfield and Dorval. Skipping these probably costs more ridership than would be gained from time savings. Think of niche markets that get served like tech folks going between Kanata and Markham.

I think what we could see is some kind of higher speed commuter service using the corridor between Toronto and Peterborough. And likewise between Montreal and Trois Rivières. Very easy for the regional transit authority in each region to set up something when they will have a fully grade separated and electrified corridor to work with.

 

[nfitz]

Even the Mascouche Line kinda looks like it does everything in its power to purposefully not serve Laval.

LOL! Yes, I guess it does.

Kind of like how they ran both the Green line and Orange line under Westmount but didn't build any stations in Westmount. Even the Blue line goes near the northern boundary.

The story I heard is Westmount didn't want any Metro stations.

The lines on the Google map aren't that accurate. The Orange Line goes near Glen Road and St. Catherine, while the Green Line goes west of the Dorchester Boulevard/St. Catherine intersection!

But we digress.

I think what we could see is some kind of higher speed commuter service using the corridor between Toronto and Peterborough. And likewise between Montreal and Trois Rivières. Very easy for the regional transit authority in each region to set up something when they will have a fully grade separated and electrified corridor to work with.

Absolutely. What we see in London for HS1 is that they built no less than three additional high-speed stations in and near London, and towards the coast. While almost all the privately-run high-speed trains to Europe run express through these stations the (now) government-owned commuter service (currently South Eastern Railway, formerly Southeastern, and converting soon to Great British Railways) runs high speed commuter trains on 2 or 3 routes running through some or all of the 4 high speed stations on this line.

 

[canucks2030]

I'm wondering how often you've taken the metro from Montmorency to Bonaventure!

Also, REM in Laval? While it's technically true that there's a single REM station on Île Jésus - it's kind of like saying that the 401 serves Hamilton, because the 401 passes within 300 metres of the northwest corner of Hamilton!

I'm not sure the issue here. There's going to be a suburban stop in Montreal; there always was. And one in Toronto. (who knows, maybe more than one for either).

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Your acting in bad faith. I mentioned Laval have EXO, the REM and the three Metro stations in Laval making Laval pretty covered overall with all theses pieces together. Furthermore, Montmorency to Bonaventure would be under 30 minutes pretty good for almost 20 KM.

My initial reaction was surprised Laval was included because it’s a suburb and was under the impression HSR would be focusing on major cities. Some point out Laval big enough to have a stop since it’s on the way I get the rationale but find it puzzling if Laval was included why only one station currently being planned for the GTA being much bigger than GMA. The train will not arrived by magic at union station.

If find it surprising people here find this logical.

 

[ShonTron]

It's absurd. It follows an extremely abandoned line that was replaced with a country road decades ago, wandering through villages. It's AI slop or a map drawn by an idiot, full of lines and dashes, signifying nothing. (ed. Or a good joke)

The Canadian Northern Railway alignment.

Not just any country road, but Highway 17, the main road between Ottawa and Montreal until the mid 1970s when Highway 417 was completed.

 

[Adjei]

This is the proposed route for high speed rail through southwestern Ontario proposed by the Ontario government. Mississauga would have been served through the Malton/Pearson stop: