AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Also 8 underground stations and a number of elevated ones constitute a large portion of the cost. Tunnelling is relatively cheap.
AoD
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Alto - High Speed Rail (Toronto-Quebec City)
- Thread starter innsertnamehere
- Start date
Also 8 underground stations and a number of elevated ones constitute a large portion of the cost. Tunnelling is relatively cheap.
AoD
canucks2030
New Member
Peel almost 1,5 million. Roughly the same as Ottawa. If the train goes east of Montreal to Trois-Rivières and Quebec City much smaller, why not west of Toronto? If Laval wasn’t included it I would understand why not Peel Region by focusing on core cities only. Feds prioritizing Quebec over Ontario puzzling. Furthermore the Laval stop will make the trip from Montreal to Toronto longer. This is the leg we need to make faster. So far I am very under underwhelm by the project not even prioritizing Montreal to Toronto. Even adding Ottawa will make the trip longer but it makes sense to include it in the project being the capital but Laval doesn’t make sense.
Northern Light
Superstar
Yes.
Also, Yes.
Uh......the numbers aren't public, but they aren't tracking well. The O/L is now significantly behind schedule and you can safely assume that means costs are up, more than a little.
kEiThZ
Superstar
So much ignorance here.
1) The project is not going West of Downtown Toronto right now. You can blame most of that on Metrolinx and the failed Ontario HSR plans, which basically ruled out federal HSR expansion West of Union. At best, if they go West, it's to Pearson and it's because they are using the Midtown Corridor. That's a stretch right now.
2) Take a map. Draw a straight line from Ottawa to Montreal. You're going to see that Laval is on the way. And it's the Mississauga of Montreal. Either way, Laval is en route either from Ottawa or on the way to Trois Rivieres. Ergo, it was always going to be served. Square One is not on any rail corridor HSR would use.
3) The very fact that you think adding Ottawa is a chore shows you ignorance. Both air and rail traffic between Toronto and Ottawa and Toronto and Montreal are relatively close. But boys who only travel to Montreal for Bachelor Parties will not understand how much business travel there is between Ottawa and Toronto.
4) If Mississauga is getting served, it will be at Pearson station. Nobody is diverting the train out of the way to serve Mississauga. And if the downtown station is at Union, it's really easy to take GO and get on an HSR at Union anyway.
MisterF
Senior Member
I don't see how Alto would have its Toronto hub anywhere other than Union. I can see the logic in non-optimal stations as an interim measure, but even that seems unlikely for Toronto. Union is by far the biggest station on the highest capacity rail line which is already publicly owned. The building just went through a large expansion and now the tracks and platforms are being reworked. Surely there's a way to fit high speed rail traffic through it. Summerhill, OTOH, is on a private company's mainline with no passenger infrastructure whatsoever and barely any connections to regional transit. CP making a deal for the barely functional Havelock sub is one thing but doing the same for their mainline through Toronto seems unlikely.
The only way I could see Summerhill being used, even temporarily, is if CP is easier to work with than Metrolinx and the midtown corridor/Summerhill station are easier to convert for passenger traffic than making the changes Union would need. But even then, Union is as central as it gets and the biggest transportation hub in the country. Surely the benefits of bringing high speed trains there outweigh the costs.
The only way I could see Summerhill being used, even temporarily, is if CP is easier to work with than Metrolinx and the midtown corridor/Summerhill station are easier to convert for passenger traffic than making the changes Union would need. But even then, Union is as central as it gets and the biggest transportation hub in the country. Surely the benefits of bringing high speed trains there outweigh the costs.
canucks2030
New Member
If you read my message you will notice I mentioned I understand why Ottawa was added. However, having three stops between Toronto and Montreal will sadly make the trip longer unless some trains would be direct. As long they do it would fix my criticism.
But still doesn’t explain why more stops in Québec than Ontario when Ontario much bigger. The only thing that makes sense it’s your first bullet about Go Transit. However, in Montreal, both the Metro and the REM go to Laval so why HSR allowed to go to Laval and not Peel? And sorry for my ignorance, this is why I asked the question. If I wasn’t ignorant I would not be asking the question.
I do agree Laval the Mississauga of Montreal but it’s much much much smaller. If one city should have two stops it’s Toronto not Montreal. Both York Region and Peel Region bigger than Laval. Same with Durham and Scarborough. The train would need to reach of these to go downtown TO. Still puzzling Laval seems to be a priority of HSR.
Thaboss
Active Member
Its not meant to serve as regional rail. If ontario wants to improve connections to peel, they can.
Laval just so happens to be on the way to montreal. I'm not sure its much deeper than this.
I would also say that theres almost no point in having multiple stops in the gta when our regional rail is there and improving.
Like what exactly does alto gain from stopping in missauga when they can take go to union and alto from there. Quebec lacks any meaningful regional rail so its a much easier decsion to make and a much simpler connection.
As a side point ...the last couple pages has shown a stunning amount of ignorance when it comes to the purpose of HSR from a federal perspective.
canucks2030
New Member
To reach downtown Toronto, the train will need to pass either North York, Scarborough or Durham the same way it will with Laval. Why not a stop there being all bigger than Laval?
Thaboss
Active Member
Gta has regional rail.....union station is easy to get to. The only other stop they might make it Pearson...ppl need to get this idea of multiple stops out of their heads, its not happning, and has never ever been talked about by ALTO who have made their stop plan rather clear.
Maybe 10 years after the lines open things will change but for now this conversation is wishful thinking
canucks2030
New Member
Laval has the REM, EXO and the metro so what is the difference? My point simply if Montreal has two stops why not Toronto. If the reason it’s because the train will need to reach Laval, it’s the same for Toronto, the train will not appear by magic at union station without reaching a suburb area first also.
If Laval wasn’t included I would not question why only one stop in Toronto. But Toronto big enough to have two stops, more so than Montreal. Montreal will get two stops, Toronto should also.
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Adjei
Senior Member
Why do you keep jumping to conclusions ? They have only showed segment from Ottawa to Montreal with a stop in Laval. They haven’t shown the Ottawa to Toronto. We don’t know the number of stops this segment will have yet.
canucks2030
New Member
Ignorance on all sides. You said Québec lack meaningful regional rail to justify a stop in Laval but Laval has three subway stations, EXO and now the REM. You also said Laval just happens to be on the way to Montreal. Toronto has suburbs too alongs the way to downtown Toronto. So why Laval so special? At first you said it’s not meant as regional rail and then you justify Laval being included because from your perspective Quebec lack meaningful regional rail.
canucks2030
New Member
Since February 2025 people know Laval would be included prior to the confirmation of the first segment in December 2025. We have the overall map already and don’t mention two stops in Toronto like it does with Montreal.
urbanclient
Active Member
Gonna quickly interject here: Peel is almost certainly more than 1.7 million as of today. It hit 1,662,864 as of July 1, 2024, and even that might have been an undercount due to overstayed and extended visas. https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1710015201
Please, let's stop this habit of citing 2021 census numbers when even StatsCanada have admitted they were undercounts. You're undercounting Peel's population by 15% compared to StatsCanada in July 2024.
“We [have] more people in the country than you think. People say we are 41 million. No, we are 42 million in the country. But we are not counting one million,” Tal said.
https://www.mpamag.com/ca/mortgage-industry/industry-trends/we-are-in-a-recession-cibcs-tal/553608
"Many are concerned. Bank of Canada Gov. Tiff Macklem is among those who have raised doubts about Ottawa’s population projections. And Benjamin Tal, chief economist at CIBC Capital Markets, says Ottawa is underestimating population growth by at least three times.
[...]
If the statistical agency were more real-life, they say it would realize population growth could reach 1.1 per cent in 2025 and one per cent in 2026 — more than three times the government’s official forecasts.
'If we add (visitor) visa extensions back into the population base,' Tal adds, 'growth could reach 2.3 per cent in 2025.' "
Canada is failing to count how many overstay their visas
Douglas Todd: How can decision-makers plan when huge numbers of people who were supposed to leave the country aren't being tracked?
vancouversun.com
So yeah, the Windsor (Toronto) end of the Quebec-Windsor corridor definitely has higher populations and densities. But Alto is just as much a political project as a "nation building" one. The Windsor-Toronto end of the Corridor is treated as captive voters by the federal government. Therefore there is no reason for them to appease us with more HSR. Quebec is a whole other story, they'll vote for the Bloc the moment they feel neglected.
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Jaye101
Active Member
I actually pondered this as well. Laval has a stop and I think Scarborough should get a stop somewhere near the 401 and Line 4 extension, it's on the way. Allowing those from North York and Scarborough, as well as people from York Region access the line without traveling downtown. After all, VIA does stop at Guildwood.