Montréal Transit Developments

[nfitz]

I'm curious, is there a possibility there wasn't even any intrusion detection setup in this section? After all it was in the middle of a highway median, they might not have thought it was necessary to add in this location

I'd have thought there'd have been a significant wildlife risk here. Not to mention a suicide risk. Though I was thinking more of the onboard detection systems - which could react quicker than an operator.

 

[APTA-2048]

There appears to be victim blaming here. It will be interesting to see in the investigation when the system sensed the trespassers on the track, and when it started emergency braking.

This is something relayed to me by a transit worker in Montreal:

Apparently, a control room operator has to actually activate the emergency stop when something is detected on the tracks.

 

[nfitz]

Apparently, a control room operator has to actually activate the emergency stop when something is detected on the tracks.

JFC!

That seems to be perverse in this day and age. And dangerous. I can see setting an override after the first observation shows that it's a false alarm. Hopefully we aren't doing this on the Ontario line. Good fodder for the Union.

 

[SFO-YYZ]

According to police reports, the 3 men were trying to cross from the northeast side of Autoroute 10, near Du Quartier station, towards the southwestern side where Quartier Dix30 is located (large shopping and bar/restaurant TOD complex connected to the REM).

According to CBC, this is approximately the location where they crossed - not exactly a walk in the park to scale a 7ft concrete barrier/fence in the middle of a highway. What’s even more baffling is that there is a pedestrian bridge right above, along with another overpass 100m north that is open to both pedestrians and traffic.

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[urbanclient]

According to police reports, the 3 men were trying to cross from the northeast side of Autoroute 10, near Du Quartier station, towards the southwestern side where Quartier Dix30 is located (large shopping and bar/restaurant TOD complex connected to the REM).

According to CBC, this is approximately the location where they crossed - not exactly a walk in the park to scale a 7ft concrete barrier/fence in the middle of a highway. What’s even more baffling is that there is a pedestrian bridge right above, along with another overpass 100m north that is open to both pedestrians and traffic.

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View attachment 698425

What happened was a tragedy, regardless of who those young men were and what they intended. But let's be real here, if someone scaled a high fence and got hit by 401 traffic at night, most of us wouldn't bat an eye beyond feeling sorry for the family.

In this case, they not only scaled two fences, but crossed 3 lanes of a controlled access highway, despite safer alternatives close by.

Should REM operating procedures change a bit? Probably, since it's a hassle for authorities to deal with casualties. But IMO the extent to which it's been sensationalized is much more pronounced than similar 401 accidents.

 

[APTA-2048]

There's a weird, I don't know how to put it, maybe rationalizing or defensiveness from some people in this thread about this incident that feels weird. Like "it's a tragedy, but actually..." kind of thing.

 

[nfitz]

A good article in yesterday's Gazette describing the almost 65-years of trying to put in metro-like service through the tunnel to at least Bois-Franc (and Cartierville) since it was first promised.

Deux-Montagnes REM route has many parents, but Jean Drapeau's shadow looms large

Converting the Deux Montagnes line into a surface métro is the realization of a plan first imagined by Jean Drapeau in the early 1960s.

montrealgazette.com

 

[urbanclient]

There's a weird, I don't know how to put it, maybe rationalizing or defensiveness from some people in this thread about this incident that feels weird. Like "it's a tragedy, but actually..." kind of thing.

It's mostly because we don't want an isolated tragedy that unfortunately highlights the imperfections in a well-designed, but imperfect system from discouraging people from using or supporting said system (REM). Obviously I hope the REM is improved. Braking should probably be automated rather than manual in cases of guideway intrusion.

There was a 401 pedestrian incursion night accident from a year or two ago that was nuked off most sources because it was too NSFL. It's a story that I would bet most on this forum never heard about. We live in a place where cars are a fundamental part of our lives. There is little to no incentive for media outlets to make much of a fuss of all those hit and killed outside vehicles on the highway. Unhoused, tire changers, etc... A simple google search of 401 pedestrian killed turns up a handful of results in the last year. EDIT: And yet noone is calling for more high fences or better incursion mitigation for the 401. The impracticality of preventing all pedestrian incursions on highways is an accepted fact.

 

[APTA-2048]

It's mostly because we don't want an isolated tragedy that unfortunately highlights the imperfections in a well-designed, but imperfect system from discouraging people from using or supporting said system (REM). Obviously I hope the REM is improved. Braking should probably be automated rather than manual in cases of guideway intrusion.

There was a 401 pedestrian incursion night accident from a year or two ago that was nuked off most sources because it was too NSFL. It's a story that I would bet most on this forum never heard about. We live in a place where cars are a fundamental part of our lives. There is little to no incentive for media outlets to make much of a fuss of all those hit and killed outside vehicles on the highway. Unhoused, tire changers, etc... A simple google search of 401 pedestrian killed turns up a handful of results in the last year. EDIT: And yet noone is calling for more high fences or better incursion mitigation for the 401. The impracticality of preventing all pedestrian incursions on highways is an accepted fact.

No I get that. But I personally haven’t seen much sensationalism in the media. Coverage (at least from serious media outlets) seems to be about the same as when that kid was killed while riding on top of a Toronto subway a few years ago. It may seem like it’s getting a lot of coverage, but that’s because these type of incidents are so rare.

 

[SFO-YYZ]

No I get that. But I personally haven’t seen much sensationalism in the media. Coverage (at least from serious media outlets) seems to be about the same as when that kid was killed while riding on top of a Toronto subway a few years ago. It may seem like it’s getting a lot of coverage, but that’s because these type of incidents are so rare.

Try to watch your average 6 pm anglophone nightly news here in Montreal, or some francophone tabloids like Journal de Montreal / TVA. It's almost always fairly negative coverage on the REM (and pretty much any other transit or bike lane related initiatives). I get that it gets them the viewership and caters to their (predominantly) suburban NIMBY boomer crowd (the same people who complained loudly and ultimately killed REM de l'Est).

I was on le Rem on opening day, and overhead this CBC/Radio-Canada journalist rehearse his lines in the corner of a car with his crew, and he kept repeating: "after half a half a decade of construction and delays, the much delayed Deux-Montagne is officially up and running". Me and my friends were all like... "after half a decade" is a weird way of saying "5 or 6 years"

CBC: After half a decade of construction and delays, the second branch of Montreal’s light-rail network, which goes from Deux-Montagnes, Que., to downtown Montreal, is officially up and running.

Global News: After years of postponements, delays, another leg of the REM light rail network finally open to public

Global News: Montreal residents of Griffintown concerned over loud noise from REM train

Global News: Montreal’s multi-billion-dollar REM light-rail shuts down on first official day amid complaints and incidents

 

[Kyle Campbell]

There's a weird, I don't know how to put it, maybe rationalizing or defensiveness from some people in this thread about this incident that feels weird. Like "it's a tragedy, but actually..." kind of thing.

There does have to be some consideration of diminishing returns though when it comes to safety. The men were being incredibly reckless, which really makes it hard to justify doing any thing more than saying this is a tragedy but no new safety measures are required

 

[urbanclient]

Try to watch your average 6 pm anglophone nightly news here in Montreal, or some francophone tabloids like Journal de Montreal / TVA. It's almost always fairly negative coverage on the REM (and pretty much any other transit or bike lane related initiatives). I get that it gets them the viewership and caters to their (predominantly) suburban NIMBY boomer crowd (the same people who complained loudly and ultimately killed REM de l'Est).

I was on le Rem on opening day, and overhead this CBC/Radio-Canada journalist rehearse his lines in the corner of a car with his crew, and he kept repeating: "after half a half a decade of construction and delays, the much delayed Deux-Montagne is officially up and running". Me and my friends were all like... "after half a decade" is a weird way of saying "5 or 6 years"

CBC: After half a decade of construction and delays, the second branch of Montreal’s light-rail network, which goes from Deux-Montagnes, Que., to downtown Montreal, is officially up and running.

Global News: After years of postponements, delays, another leg of the REM light rail network finally open to public

Global News: Montreal residents of Griffintown concerned over loud noise from REM train

Global News: Montreal’s multi-billion-dollar REM light-rail shuts down on first official day amid complaints and incidents

So far the project has taken 7 years and change for 50 km of fully automated metro with platform screen doors. All this for a price tag of around $125-140 million per km, which is cheaper than most recent Chinese projects and 1/5th the cost of Line 5 Eglinton*.

By nearly every metric, REM is a roaring success and yet legacy media still has plenty to complain about it. A delay of 2-3 years is peanuts when you consider the original timeline from 2016 called for the initial Brossard section to open in December 2020! The Brossard section actually opened in July 2023.

The REM only started construction in March 2018 (which was late already). To say a project is delayed in a negative way when the original timeline called for only ~3 years to build and test the first section is completely asinine. Same thing for the budget, which was absurdly low to begin with. They were aiming for the Sun and only reached the Moon.

*REM and Eglinton are apples and oranges, but still...

I recommend watching this video for a good overview of the project's strengths. For weaknesses, you'll have to dig around a bit and read.

 

[nfitz]

So far the project has taken 7 years and change for 50 km of fully automated metro with platform screen doors. All this for a price tag of around $125-140 million per km, which is cheaper than most recent Chinese projects and 1/5th the cost of Line 5 Eglinton*.

Does that include the cost of the LRT spans of the Champlain Bridge (that started construction in 2015)?

Most of that line has been built in an existing dedicated rail corridor (and tunnel!). One would hope it's a lot cheaper!

 

[Voltz]

Does that include the cost of the LRT spans of the Champlain Bridge (that started construction in 2015)?

Most of that line has been built in an existing dedicated rail corridor (and tunnel!). One would hope it's a lot cheaper!

The REM used what is easily $10 Billion of existing infrastructure, which is a good idea except that the tunnel had other potential uses. Quebec should be paying for a new tunnel for ALTO if they want decent travel times east of Montreal.

 

[urbanclient]

The REM used what is easily $10 Billion of existing infrastructure, which is a good idea except that the tunnel had other potential uses. Quebec should be paying for a new tunnel for ALTO if they want decent travel times east of Montreal.

I don't know about 10 billion of existing infrastructure, that would mean a transit-only Champlain Bridge, MR tunnel, and Deux Montagnes line were worth more than all the infrastructure built for the REM ($9.4 billion). I also have doubts as to how much was saved reusing the Mont Royal tunnel considering the delays in dealing with leftover explosives. TBM tunnelling costs would have been about 100 to 500 million per route km. Even still:

Northern Light makes a good point here. It was a lucky coincidence that the new bridge and old tunnel were already done/planned prior to REM construction. However, it's still really impressive the cost per km for effectively doubling the rail rapid transit network in Montreal with automated 'express' metro with double the potential capacity of L5 Eglinton (pphpd). Even if taking $18 billion CAD for 67km, that is still $270 million per km, which is likely going to be 1/3rd the per km cost of Line 5 Eglinton.