GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx

[daniel_kryz]

^It is curious how a disproportionate part of the discussion revolves around the brand of trains -and then, inevitably about the painting of the trains - as if that matters.

I understand that this is not the most important issue, but it would be nice to have good-looking trains... and (sigh) stations with colour, material, and quality.
It's great that we have an iconic look for our GO Trains, as it helps people remember them and imo the new colour scheme (dark green - white - light green - black) looks very nice!

 

[crs1026]

That's important. But I would argue that schedule and cost/fare come before that. And of those, schedule is by far the most important.

From a customer perspective, electrification is almost irrelevant. A slightly smoother and faster ride is a bonus. Not a pre-requisite. Electrification is more about allowing an operator to keep operating costs low while delivering much more frequent service.

Indded. If fares, schedules, trip times, and first/last mile connectivity isn’t right, running the Orient Express on RER won’t draw riders.

The barriers to electrification of GO has always been the enormous logistical and financial challenge, all of it front end loaded. There has never been an operational necessity, nor have electricity and petro prices had sufficient certainty to create a credible financial value proposition. ML probably is doing the right thing, by burying the sticker price in a massive P3 where it can be financed over time without the voter seeing anything clearly enough to have a sticker shock reaction.
I do think electrification is now mission critical, and the preparations may have sat for too long…such that RER is going to take longer to achieve than it shoukd have. But One has to accept that it’s not that easy to sell.
- Paul

 

[mdu]

Listen kids, in 2014 Metrolinx announced the RER system and it's service will be each-way, all-day, 15 minute service. Now, 7 years later can any of you say you have been given any updates as to what that pertains?

It will almost certainly be electrified via catenary (see this 800 page addendum https://www.metrolinxengage.com/sit...il_network_electrification_epr_addendum_1.pdf)

The service pattern will look like this: https://www.metrolinxengage.com/sit..._-_go_expansion_feb_2020_-_revised_feb_13.pdf

The intended propulsion technology mix (which took a long time to dig up): http://www.metrolinx.com/en/regionalplanning/projectevaluation/benefitscases/GO_Expansion_FBC.PDF , page 44-5, which matches up with the map from last year. So there's service all day, at most 15 minutes headway, both directions, out to Aldershot, Bramlea, Aurora, Unionville, and Oshawa.

You should know all of this, seeing that you've been shilling your non-catenary-technology du jour in this thread for longer than I've been on the website.

 

[kEiThZ]

Some people have a pathological need to feel like they have unique foresight and/or insight. And the internet has given us a generation of Wikipedia geniuses who are professionals on any and every topic. From passenger rail to epidemiology. There's even literature on this trend.

Anybody who is a professional of any kind will have stories of some wikipedia genius who thinks they know more. And they will inevitably lose an internet debate to these geniuses because discussions devolve to one long string of whataboutisms and you can't really educate someone on all the intricacies of your profession or a particular project in a few forum posts.

 

[ssiguy2]

When I say we don't know what the trains will be I'm not talking about the damn colour or even the manufacturer.

I am talking about kind of trains they will be. For all we know they could just be the current jumbo trains they run now and just stick catenary on them. They could be double EMUs like Sydney trains or a combination of double & single cars like the new Paris RER ones or completely single levels. Hell they could be just standard subway trains using catenary a la Cleveland. This is to say nothing of the fact that they don't know what kind {if any} of level boarding they will have.

After 7 years of construction and platitudes by Metrolinx, not knowing such a basic thing is scandalous. This shouldn't have even been a debate one year after the system was announced little alone 7. By this time there should be no questions about anything to do with the service whether that be the contractor, fares, trains, technology, boarding levels, frequencies, station or yes, even the damn colour of the trains. To not now EXACTLY what Torontonians will be getting by now is an affront to both the transit users and taxpayers.

This is why Torontonians are not even remotely interested {little alone looking forward to} RER or Go Expansion. How can you get excited about something that you have no idea what it is. This is like the kid trying to get excited because Mom & Dad told them they are going to help them get a new place but after 7 years the kid still doesn't even know if that is a big single family house, a townhome, a condo, an apt, or a room in a basement little alone how much their mortgage or rent will be.

 

[ARG1]

When I say we don't know what the trains will be I'm not talking about the damn colour or even the manufacturer.

I am talking about kind of trains they will be. For all we know they could just be the current jumbo trains they run now and just stick catenary on them. They could be double EMUs like Sydney trains or a combination of double & single cars like the new Paris RER ones or completely single levels. Hell they could be just standard subway trains using catenary a la Cleveland. This is to say nothing of the fact that they don't know what kind {if any} of level boarding they will have.

After 7 years of construction and platitudes by Metrolinx, not knowing such a basic thing is scandalous. This shouldn't have even been a debate one year after the system was announced little alone 7. By this time there should be no questions about anything to do with the service whether that be the contractor, fares, trains, technology, boarding levels, frequencies, station or yes, even the damn colour of the trains. To not now EXACTLY what Torontonians will be getting by now is an affront to both the transit users and taxpayers.

This is why Torontonians are not even remotely interested {little alone looking forward to} RER or Go Expansion. How can you get excited about something that you have no idea what it is. This is like the kid trying to get excited because Mom & Dad told them they are going to help them get a new place but after 7 years the kid still doesn't even know if that is a big single family house, a townhome, a condo, an apt, or a room in a basement little alone how much their mortgage or rent will be.

Clearly you don't know how P3s work. All of this is up to the bidder of the OnCorr contract that will be awarded next year. The bidder will decide what vehicles to use, how high the platform is, and develop and publicize a plan on what they want to do and how they want to do it. Metrolinx takes a look at all of the submissions and awards the contract to whoever's submission they like best.

 

[generalcanada]

all you have to say to people who dont care what type of trains are used is theese 2 things
- less polution and noise (especially those really close to the tracks like riverdale
- 10-20% faster trips those 45 minute trips are now 35 minutes thats actually huge

as for whether people know about this? some, in certain areas like riverdale, but Metrolinx is just not very good at public awareness

 

[ARG1]

all you have to say to people who dont care what type of trains are used is theese 2 things
- less polution and noise (especially those really close to the tracks like riverdale
- 10-20% faster trips those 45 minute trips are now 35 minutes thats actually huge

as for whether people know about this? some, in certain areas like riverdale, but Metrolinx is just not very good at public awareness

Technically all of this is true, but in the grand scheme of things, compared to the other work that's going into GO Expansion, all of this is fairly small. The biggest issues with GO at the moment aren't the trip times or the pollution, its the very infrequent service and the lack of fare integration within the city of Toronto, which the current works solves the former. If we were to do a head to head comparison of a theoretical GO Expansion without electrification, and a GO Electrified, and compare them to status quo GO, the former is far more useful and important. Even without electrification, we are able to achieve 15 minute+ headways on many of the routes with a theoretical maximum of 5 minutes, with improved stations that have full platform canopies and grade separations that reduces noise and doesn't obstruct regular traffic as much. Meanwhile a "GO Electrified" would still leave most routes stuck at hourly service with the only benefit compared to status quo being, what, slightly faster trip times and less pollution? Of course I'm not here to undermine the importance electrification, faster travel times will allow us to be more liberal with building infill stations that serve more areas of the city allowing these lines to more resemble overground subway lines however at the end of the day if we ask ourselves what the most important aspects of GO Expansion are, those are the double tracking, grade separations, and station expansion projects that we are currently building right now. Stuff like electrification is just the cherry on top of the sundae.

 

[KevinT]

It's great that we have an iconic look for our GO Trains, as it helps people remember them and imo the new colour scheme (dark green - white - light green - black) looks very nice!

Lol, I call the new one 'Limes and Frogs' and much preferred the old Wintergreen one, although it did need more gloss than I ever saw on it. The glossy shine on the new scheme is nice.

 

[ssiguy2]

Clearly you don't know how P3s work. All of this is up to the bidder of the OnCorr contract that will be awarded next year. The bidder will decide what vehicles to use, how high the platform is, and develop and publicize a plan on what they want to do and how they want to do it. Metrolinx takes a look at all of the submissions and awards the contract to whoever's submission they like best.

I do know how P3s work but such things should have been put out as parameters BEFORE it went out to tender much like ML demanding that all potential systems have to be able to handle the standard gauge tracks that it already uses as opposed to allowing a bidder who wants to rip up all the tracks and put in 3rd rail. Not putting out such basic standard such as train types beforehand is truly bizarre. Putting aside the fact for a minute that no other city on the planet is stupid enough not to set such basic requirements to begin with, 7 years?? How in God's name does it take 7 years and counting to pick a bidder?

I still assert that is not because ML couldn't have made these decisions 5 years ago but rather that didn't want to. As soon as any of the lines become electrified then they will have to already have some form of fare integration and ML simply doesn't want to take on that baby. This has been even more apparent in the last couple weeks. The TTC & Miss and TTC & York transit as they are going to be introducing some kind of fare integration on certain routes. They should not be doing this! This is what ML was set up to do in the first place and even these transit agencies are effectively stating by doing this that ML simply refuses to tackle the issue.

 

[ARG1]

I do know how P3s work but such things should have been put out as parameters BEFORE it went out to tender much like ML demanding that all potential systems have to be able to handle the standard gauge tracks that it already uses as opposed to allowing a bidder who wants to rip up all the tracks and put in 3rd rail. Not putting out such basic standard such as train types beforehand is truly bizarre. Putting aside the fact for a minute that no other city on the planet is stupid enough not to set such basic requirements to begin with, 7 years?? How in God's name does it take 7 years and counting to pick a bidder?

I still assert that is not because ML couldn't have made these decisions 5 years ago but rather that didn't want to. As soon as any of the lines become electrified then they will have to already have some form of fare integration and ML simply doesn't want to take on that baby. This has been even more apparent in the last couple weeks. The TTC & Miss and TTC & York transit as they are going to be introducing some kind of fare integration on certain routes. They should not be doing this! This is what ML was set up to do in the first place and even these transit agencies are effectively stating by doing this that ML simply refuses to tackle the issue.

How is that bizarre? Like this is the definition of trying to identify problems where they don't exist. What exactly is wrong with leaving it up to the bidder to decide what type of trains the system runs on? How does it take 7 years to pick a bidder? They had different priorities these past 7 years such as Georgetown South and Stouffville.

No, ML was not created to assert control over the municipalities. As it turns out, creating a single unified fare system that is sustainable long term and is uniform across the entirety of the gtha and beyond is really difficult, so much so that these pilot efforts to offer integration between TTC and YRT are nothing compared to the work required to create a unified fare system.

Like, you're really stretching here trying to paint ML as some bad guys.

 

[daniel_kryz]

I do know how P3s work but such things should have been put out as parameters BEFORE it went out to tender much like ML demanding that all potential systems have to be able to handle the standard gauge tracks that it already uses as opposed to allowing a bidder who wants to rip up all the tracks and put in 3rd rail. Not putting out such basic standard such as train types beforehand is truly bizarre. Putting aside the fact for a minute that no other city on the planet is stupid enough not to set such basic requirements to begin with, 7 years?? How in God's name does it take 7 years and counting to pick a bidder?

I still assert that is not because ML couldn't have made these decisions 5 years ago but rather that didn't want to. As soon as any of the lines become electrified then they will have to already have some form of fare integration and ML simply doesn't want to take on that baby. This has been even more apparent in the last couple weeks. The TTC & Miss and TTC & York transit as they are going to be introducing some kind of fare integration on certain routes. They should not be doing this! This is what ML was set up to do in the first place and even these transit agencies are effectively stating by doing this that ML simply refuses to tackle the issue.

True. Many transit agencies pick specific technology BEFORE they put out bids, as their staff do a technical study beforehand to determine the best technology. And the TTC/YRT/MiWay fare integration is just hilarious proof that Metrolinx does not know what it's doing. Fare integration was a integral part of their legislative mandate, encoded in law in 2006! It's been 15 years since they were required by law to produce a "unified fare system", and they still have 0 updates as to what that might even look like! Metrolinx's incompetence is enormous, the agency should be reformed from top to bottom, and I'm confused as to why there are no consequences for Metrolinx not complying to the law. It's as if Canada's entire principle of rule of law relies on people to sue the government, without any compliance framework for laws that governments set for themselves.

 

[generalcanada]

Technically all of this is true, but in the grand scheme of things, compared to the other work that's going into GO Expansion, all of this is fairly small. The biggest issues with GO at the moment aren't the trip times or the pollution, its the very infrequent service and the lack of fare integration within the city of Toronto, which the current works solves the former. If we were to do a head to head comparison of a theoretical GO Expansion without electrification, and a GO Electrified, and compare them to status quo GO, the former is far more useful and important. Even without electrification, we are able to achieve 15 minute+ headways on many of the routes with a theoretical maximum of 5 minutes, with improved stations that have full platform canopies and grade separations that reduces noise and doesn't obstruct regular traffic as much. Meanwhile a "GO Electrified" would still leave most routes stuck at hourly service with the only benefit compared to status quo being, what, slightly faster trip times and less pollution? Of course I'm not here to undermine the importance electrification, faster travel times will allow us to be more liberal with building infill stations that serve more areas of the city allowing these lines to more resemble overground subway lines however at the end of the day if we ask ourselves what the most important aspects of GO Expansion are, those are the double tracking, grade separations, and station expansion projects that we are currently building right now. Stuff like electrification is just the cherry on top of the sundae.

The reason I dont mention the increased service is that in my opinion as a Lakeshore east passenger pre-pandemic, I had a hard time seeing how there could be even further increased service. During Rush hour theres already as many of 5 trains heading into toronto.

So we get what 1 or 2 more trains in that time frame? pree good as some trains get packed at pickering but as far as im concerned lakeshore east is already there with the high frequency.

which is why there really isnt any big projects on the LSE line for GO expansion like there are for the other lines, like the the grade separations and double tracking on the stouville and barrie lines

As far as i can tell were just waiting on electrification or newer vehicles/locomotives to see any further increase in service for us

 

[ARG1]

The reason I dont mention the increased service is that in my opinion as a Lakeshore east passenger pre-pandemic, I had a hard time seeing how there could be even further increased service. During Rush hour theres already as many of 5 trains heading into toronto.

So we get what 1 or 2 more trains in that time frame? pree good as some trains get packed at pickering but as far as im concerned lakeshore east is already there with the high frequency.

which is why there really isnt any big projects on the LSE line for GO expansion like there are for the other lines, like the the grade separations and double tracking on the stouville and barrie lines

As far as i can tell were just waiting on electrification or newer vehicles/locomotives to see any further increase in service for us

I guess if you're focusing on the Lakeshores then yes you have a point, however I'd still argue that even if left as is, the Lakeshores were pretty good transit lines on their own merits, which really could've used some more stations and better feeder busses. However I'd also wager that this is due to the amount of attention those lines received all of the years before GO Expansion was even on the drawing bored, it often felt like the GO Network was "The lakeshore lines and the other ones...". In terms of developing GO as a cohesive network Barrie, Stouffville, and Kitchener really deserve the attention they've been getting.

 

[ssiguy2]

No, ML was not created to assert control over the municipalities.

Absolutely correct. It wasn't created to assert control OVER municipalities but it was created to coordinate BETWEEN municipalities in terms of transit.

The TTC/Miss/York should not have to deal with fare integration because that was suppose to be ML's responsibility which they have clearly absolved themselves from. This one-off micro fare integrations between selective agencies on selective routes is the antithesis of REGIONAL planning. ML was suppose to get rid of these fiefdom fares but these agencies know that ML has absolutely no intention of doing so within our lifetimes.

This has been ongoing for ages and they haven't done a damn thing. The Board of Trade on the other hand, who's responsibility doesn't lie here, has managed to come up with a truly excellent fare integration plan within a couple years while ML is MIA. Verster and the whole gang should be fired for incompetence.