Metrolinx: Sheppard East LRT (In Design)

[Rainforest]

However, we must account for the notion that most elderly people are not capable of doing that and we ought to keep that in mind when building transit. They should not be cast aside to Wheel-trans for basic trips that could be done with adequately planned transit. Public transit should serve the general public and not exclusively the working age commuter. Besides how are we going to rely on Wheel-Trans to transport our seniors given the aging nature of our population.

I'm not saying we should go extremely out of our way to cater to them, and I understand that whatever we build has to be efficient for the average commuter. But I'm not so sure I believe its appropriate to assume our elderly will 'toughen up' and walk and segregate them from using general transit.

This factor should be taken into account. However, proposals of less frequent LRT stops are usually tied with running parallel local bus service.

In that case, people with mobility issues living along a major street will still be better off than those living in the middle of the block (and there is no way to serve the second group with scheduled routes, only with WheelTrans or another kind of on-demand service). The first group will have access to the local bus stops (likely, even more frequent than 400 m that TTC wants to see on the surface LRT routes).

 

[Rainforest]

For Sheppard E LRT, I have a suggestion how to optimize the stops.

In any case, we need to retain a bus on the eastern section of the #85 route; from Meadowvale to Rouge Hill GO. Although we can connect this bus to the LRT at Meadowvale & Sheppard, the riders will probably prefer their bus to go directly to the subway terminus at McCowan and Sheppard.

If so, we can use this bus for local service east of McCowan, and cut as many as 7 LRT stops (the map is below). Meadowvale will be the 6-th LRT stop after McCowan, and the Zoo will be 7-th if the LRT goes to the Zoo.

At the same time, we can retain all LRT stops proposed by TTC between Don Mills Stn and McCowan, and do not run any parallel bus service there.

So, the LRT will be "local" from Don Mills to McCowan, and support "transit-oriented development" there. The LRT will be "express" from McCowan to the Zoo.

 

[WislaHD]

That is indeed the best solution I've seen proposed yet. We'll save money on stations as well.

 

[Cobra]

For Sheppard E LRT, I have a suggestion how to optimize the stops.

In any case, we need to retain a bus on the eastern section of the #85 route; from Meadowvale to Rouge Hill GO. Although we can connect this bus to the LRT at Meadowvale & Sheppard, the riders will probably prefer their bus to go directly to the subway terminus at McCowan and Sheppard.

If so, we can use this bus for local service east of McCowan, and cut as many as 7 LRT stops (the map is below). Meadowvale will be the 6-th LRT stop after McCowan, and the Zoo will be 7-th if the LRT goes to the Zoo.

At the same time, we can retain all LRT stops proposed by TTC between Don Mills Stn and McCowan, and do not run any parallel bus service there.

So, the LRT will be "local" from Don Mills to McCowan, and support "transit-oriented development" there. The LRT will be "express" from McCowan to the Zoo.

I really don't see the point of an LRT past McCowan Road. That stretch is nothing a bus can't handle. The money saved could be used elsewhere.

Won't the Line 2 subway reaching McCowan & Sheppard cause the projected ridership to drop drastically? Those east of McCowan road would no longer bother to continue to Don Mills, right?

 

[WislaHD]

I really don't see the point of an LRT past McCowan Road. That stretch is nothing a bus can't handle. The money saved could be used elsewhere.

Won't the Line 2 subway reaching McCowan & Sheppard cause the projected ridership to drop drastically? Those east of McCowan road would no longer bother to continue to Don Mills, right?

That and those east of say Birchmount would likely be choosing to go eastbound towards Line 2 as opposed to Don Mills.

I hate to say it, but if we are removing the LRT east of McCowen anyway... then the Sheppard subway extension to Sheppard/McCowen is only 4 stops (Victoria Park, Warden, Birchmount, Agincourt) and doesn't involve some expensive crossing of the 401 to STC.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

That and those east of say Birchmount would likely be choosing to go eastbound towards Line 2 as opposed to Don Mills.

I hate to say it, but if we are removing the LRT east of McCowen anyway... then the Sheppard subway extension to Sheppard/McCowen is only 4 stops (Victoria Park, Warden, Birchmount, Agincourt) and doesn't involve some expensive crossing of the 401 to STC.

Might as well make the TBMs boring for Line 2 turn west at Sheppard, and bore to Don Mills station. Presto, a Line 4 extension to boot!

/s

 

[BurlOak]

Might as well make the TBMs boring for Line 2 turn west at Sheppard, and bore to Don Mills station. Presto, a Line 4 extension to boot!

/s

I was actually waiting for this to be proposed.

Line 2 (B-D) is extended to STC. The station needs to be at STC, not on McCowan, thus it needs to curve westward. It is not possible to curve westward to STC and then curve back again to McCowan, so why not continue the line to Agincourt GO. From there, it is only 5.5km back to Don Mills - not much more than the SELRT budget.

The logic is there - why won't any Scarborough Councillor or MPP use it?

 

[WislaHD]

I was actually waiting for this to be proposed.

Line 2 (B-D) is extended to STC. The station needs to be at STC, not on McCowan, thus it needs to curve westward. It is not possible to curve westward to STC and then curve back again to McCowan, so why not continue the line to Agincourt GO. From there, it is only 5.5km back to Don Mills - not much more than the SELRT budget.

The logic is there - why won't any Scarborough Councillor or MPP use it?

Because they are in the business of populist rhetoric and vote buying "Subways! Subways! Subways!", not in proposing actual solutions to Scarborough's problems.

But your solution is even better. After Agincourt we would only have to tunnel to just past Victoria Park, not a considerable distance.

So I haven't seen this topic come up on UT for years, what kind of problems would emerge with merging the Sheppard Subway with Line 2? Would the line being too long be a concern at this point?

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

I was actually waiting for this to be proposed.

Line 2 (B-D) is extended to STC. The station needs to be at STC, not on McCowan, thus it needs to curve westward. It is not possible to curve westward to STC and then curve back again to McCowan, so why not continue the line to Agincourt GO. From there, it is only 5.5km back to Don Mills - not much more than the SELRT budget.

The logic is there - why won't any Scarborough Councillor or MPP use it?

This is the largest damage done by changing the Scarborough LRT to a Line 2 extension: now everything, including this, is open to revision. Next thing you know, all the work done to carefully craft The Big Move becomes undone, and only a fraction of the projects will be built by 2031 (the original timeline).

 

[Rainforest]

That is indeed the best solution I've seen proposed yet. We'll save money on stations as well.

Thanks.

But, honestly, we won't save much on stations (stops). Surface stops don't cost much anyway.

I really don't see the point of an LRT past McCowan Road. That stretch is nothing a bus can't handle. The money saved could be used elsewhere.

Won't the Line 2 subway reaching McCowan & Sheppard cause the projected ridership to drop drastically? Those east of McCowan road would no longer bother to continue to Don Mills, right?

The ridership will be low east of McCowan.

However, we do not want to create one more transfer along Sheppard East. If we switch from subway to LRT at Don Mills, we need to take the LRT to the east end.

So I haven't seen this topic come up on UT for years, what kind of problems would emerge with merging the Sheppard Subway with Line 2? Would the line being too long be a concern at this point?

Concern # 1 is the cost; much more expensive than Sheppard LRT.

# 2 is the length as you said.

# 3 is the fact that Sheppard runs 4-car trains at present. Merging the lines will necessitate finishing the existing Sheppard subway stations to handle 6-car trains.

# 4 is the absence of transit improvements east of McCowan (although, that could be handled by building a separate LRT or BRT line that starts at STC).

This is the largest damage done by changing the Scarborough LRT to a Line 2 extension: now everything, including this, is open to revision. Next thing you know, all the work done to carefully craft The Big Move becomes undone, and only a fraction of the projects will be built by 2031 (the original timeline).

The fear of opening everything for revision does not warrant not revising anything at all.

Just don't change other parts of the plan.

 

[innsertnamehere]

^indeed. Slippery slope arguments are generally fairly silly.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

^indeed. Slippery slope arguments are generally fairly silly.

Generally, maybe, but this is politics. City of Toronto politics. I'd like to think that gives it a bit of weight.

**edit: aaaannnddd called it:

http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2015.MM3.2

Request for Council to Revisit its position on Finch Avenue West Transit Plans and to Reconfirm Support for the Scarborough Subway - by Councillor Giorgio Mammoliti, seconded by Councillor Jim Karygiannis

 

[Electrify]

You know, I don't want to sound like a Fordite, but seeing as virtually nothing has been done (please correct if wrong) on the Sheppard LRT file since council voted to bring it back, this is not all that bad an idea. While I do believe it is possible to swerve the line back east after Scarborough Centre to McCowan and Sheppard, continuing northwest is not too bad an idea at all, and even begins to make the line sustainable. A right of way can be acquired underneath CTV's parking lot and Farquharson Park, further reducing costs.

Ideally though, I would rather see the Sheppard subway retrofitted to handle LRTs to provide through service. Also, at this point in the game it seems highly unlikely that Council will back Mammoliti on this.

 

[nfitz]

You know, I don't want to sound like a Fordite, but seeing as virtually nothing has been done (please correct if wrong) on the Sheppard LRT file since council voted to bring it back ...

Nothing been done? Metrolinx has been working for months on the RFQ and RFP packages, including soil testing and engineering. Do you want another multi-million payment from the city to Metrolinx? The RFQ has been scheduled to drop mid-2015 for a while.

See also http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pd...oardMtg_Capital_Projects_Report_EN.pdf#page=2

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Construction on SELRT was supposed to begin in 2014. When did this change?