Toronto BMO Field Renovations | ?m | ?s | MLSE | Gensler

MisterF said:
Yes a downtown stadium will generally be more expensive than a suburban one, but that's the same of any stadium or arena for any sport. It doesn't apply to the Argos more than any other team. In any case, with the BMO deal the Argos get a new home in a stadium that's basically the perfect size for them, for free. The city keeps ownership of the stadium, gets it expanded and upgraded for basically nothing, and would at least in theory keep MLSE from mistreating the Argos the way Rogers did. MLSE gets another tenant for their stadium and a lot more people in the seats. It's win-win-win.
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I am a bit of a rarity amongst TFC season ticket holders/supporters....I have no objection to the Argos moving into BMO. I agree with MLSE management when they say that in this day and age there surely is a way to put down grass that can survive both teams and use paint for lines that can be erased so that they don't show up in the other sport (I presume that is a two way street and the Argos would prefer no soccer lines when they play).

But I don't think it does much for the Argos schedule-wise. Sure TFC have lot fewer home matches than the Blue Jays (17 league, 2 guaranteed cup matches and a bunch of others)....but something like 15 of those are weekend games and when you consider the restrictions that MLSE proposed (I forget the number but they guaranteed no argo games for something like 3 or 4 days prior to any TFC game for the grass to recover) I am not sure that being a second tenant at BMO is going to be all that much more schedule friendly for the Argos than what they have at RogersCentre.
 
MisterF said:
Yes a downtown stadium will generally be more expensive than a suburban one, but that's the same of any stadium or arena for any sport. It doesn't apply to the Argos more than any other team. In any case, with the BMO deal the Argos get a new home in a stadium that's basically the perfect size for them, for free. The city keeps ownership of the stadium, gets it expanded and upgraded for basically nothing, and would at least in theory keep MLSE from mistreating the Argos the way Rogers did. MLSE gets another tenant for their stadium and a lot more people in the seats. It's win-win-win.

Unless the Argos get a big spending owner who's willing to spend hundreds of millions on a new stadium, they could never afford to build what they're getting at BMO. A university partnership is possible, sure, but if you go to York you lose the benefits of being downtown. It's doubtful that a York stadium would have things like a roof over the seats for example. The Argos probably should have partnered with the PanAm games to get public money that way, and maybe someday another opportunity will present itself, but for now the BMO deal really is the best thing available to them.

As for your last point, the TSN ratings do show that the Argos have more fans than people think. You don't get that many viewers without having a lot of fans. It's safe to say that a large percentage of the viewers of a regular season Toronto-Hamilton game would be from this region.


The Super Bowl is a spectacle that everyone watches whether they're football fans or not. It's no more indicative of the popularity of the NFL than the Olympics are of the popularity of track & field. To get an idea how many real fans there are of each league in this country, you need to look at regular season ratings. And for those the CFL is consistently higher than the NFL. Granted, that's probably not the case in Toronto. But if the CFL is "bush league" based on the TV viewership, than so is every sport except hockey. Maybe you shouldn't pay so much attention to what's cool and watch sports on their own merits.

In any case, coexistence with the NFL will never happen because, and I know I'm repeating myself, the NFL has no interest in Toronto for a whole variety of reasons.
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No, the CFL is still bush league whether the ratings are higher or not. CFL players are borderline NFL caliber and there are various physical and performance attributes to justify it. It's a minor league. That's why it's bush league. I still find the CFL interesting to watch however.

As for the ratings you included, all those games featured Western Canadian teams which are huge draws from those regions. The CFL is the second game in town (first for Saskatchewan) for those respective cities so the popularity of the CFL there is what drives those ratings. The interest in the west is disproportionately higher than it is in Ontario/GTA.
 
The CFL is not a minor league just as the KHL is not a minor league despite more talent playing in the NFL. Canadian and American football are different games with completely different strategies.
 
If the CFL is a bush league, then so is a big chunk of the NFL since the majority of NFL players get replaced by cheaper players and are out of the league after 1-4 years. Some of those players find their way to the CFL (some make it, some get cut), but most aren't even considered by the CFL.

It's the elite 50-75 players that distinguish the NFL, and the public perception of how much better NFL players are is amplified by how much they get paid. By contrast, while many believe that the EPL is the best soccer league in the world, no one would seriously argue that LA Liga or Serie A or the Bundesliga are bush leagues, and that's because the salary disparities aren't as nearly as great as you see between the NFL and the CFL.

Money always colours perception.

Automation Gallery said:
Comparing the NFL to the CFL is like comparing a heavyweight boxer to a featherweight
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Case in point:

A guy who constantly cries for expensive, shiny, super-tall buildings on every corner, and wants ten stories added to every existing project.
 
GenerationW said:
If the CFL is a bush league, then so is a big chunk of the NFL since the majority of NFL players get replaced by cheaper players and are out of the league after 1-4 years. Some of those players find their way to the CFL (some make it, some get cut), but most aren't even considered by the CFL.

It's the elite 50-75 players that distinguish the NFL, and the public perception of how much better NFL players are is amplified by how much they get paid. By contrast, while many believe that the EPL is the best soccer league in the world, no one would seriously argue that LA Liga or Serie A or the Bundesliga are bush leagues, and that's because the salary disparities aren't as nearly as great as you see between the NFL and the CFL.

Money always colours perception.

Case in point:

A guy who constantly cries for expensive, shiny, super-tall buildings on every corner, and wants ten stories added to every existing project.
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I get the whole Canadian nationalism-inject the Tim Horton's Double Double in my veins while I drive my pickup truck-down with the establishment of the NFL and corporate America bravado some of you are trying to espouse here but you're kidding yourself if you think the CFL matches the superiority of the NFL. Cut the nonsense. The players are generally bigger, faster, stronger. Yes, the differences between the Canadian and American games benefit certain types of players over others, but NFLers are more elite athletes overall. Not to say CFLers aren't elite athletes but they're a notch below. Just look at the combine results for each respective league.

It's usually the stubborn rural Canadian types who are blinded by their idiotic nationalist sentiments who drive the CFL and the NHL for that matter and reject any other sporting option. Give them the choice of watching the NFL, NBA or MLB and nope! Can't watch it! Too boring! Not Canadian enough for my tastes!
 
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So apparently I must live in Moosonee because I like the CFL. Who knew? But since I also like the NFL, NCAA, CIS, junior football, minor football, and I play touch football (badly), maybe I live in Sudbury. Or at least Barrie.

Wait, so the NHL is a Canadian nationalist plot? Bettman must be stopped!
 
Translude15 said:
I don't give a crap where you live but you were seemingly pretty butthurt at the very plausible suggestion the CFL is "bush league" compared to the NFL. I follow both leagues but I'm not fooling myself saying the CFL is somehow on the same level.

As for your last statement, have you ever heard some of the hockey retards ramble on about how Bettman is "against Canada" or how the Ontario should have 5 more teams? There's your nationalist ploy for ya.
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Maybe you could consider the possibility that there's something between "matches the NFL" and "bush league".

There's nothing wrong with a CFL fan considering the NFL boring. Just as there's nothing wrong with a KHL fan considering the NHL boring because of the smaller ice surface and different style of play. I disagree but I wouldn't attack them for misplaced Russian nationalism if they follow their own league instead of ours. As for basketball and baseball, yeah they're boring to me. Then again, I consider football to be boring compared to rugby. To each their own.

5 more NHL teams in Ontario is a stretch but we could easily support another two.
 
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I find the American version of football to be more boring than its Canadian counterpart. Doesn't make me a "nationalist", just one who likes excitement instead of commercials. I agree with MisterF in saying that I like rugby better than both anyway.

There is no reason why Toronto shouldn't have 2 teams. It could absolutely support it. Saying that isn't "nationalist" either, and claiming so is just brushing off a good argument.

Also to Translude, please refrain from using words like "retards" in the future. I consider it to be equivalent to calling a gay person a "f*****".
 
The only place the CFL matters any more is in smaller cities and rural areas.

Ask anyone you know in Toronto what their favourite football team is and you will get the name of an NFL team.
Ask them who their favourite player is and you will get the name of an NFL player.
The T-shirt or ball cap they are wearing will likely have an NFL team on it.
Whats their favoutite party? Superbowl parties. (ever hear of a Grey Cup party?)

Who won the Tom Pate award last season? (the Tom what award?)

Who won the "Outstanding Player and Canadian" award last season? That's right, we have an award for the best Canadian in the CFL league - because many, many of the players are NFL players that couldn't make it in the NFL - so to make sure a Canadian wins an award in the CFL awards ceremony, we specifically state that you have to be a Canadian to win the award - in "our League".


This didn't happen overnight, its been an issue for decades.

If you follow major league sports, do they ever mention the CFL?

The only way football will be interesting in Toronto again is if we have a team that can play against the best and that means we need an NFL team.

The only problem is, there may not be enough football fans left in the Toronto area to support an NFL franchise.
 
Red October said:
I find the American version of football to be more boring than its Canadian counterpart. Doesn't make me a "nationalist", just one who likes excitement instead of commercials. I agree with MisterF in saying that I like rugby better than both anyway.

There is no reason why Toronto shouldn't have 2 teams. It could absolutely support it. Saying that isn't "nationalist" either, and claiming so is just brushing off a good argument.

Also to Translude, please refrain from using words like "retards" in the future. I consider it to be equivalent to calling a gay person a "f*****".
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See, you're trying to rationalize your views in a logical manner but realistically your perceptions of 1) the NFL being "boring" and 2) the GTA easily supporting another NHL team(s) are influenced by inherently nationalistic sentiments that are pushed by many sports media types. Your judgment is clouded by subtle nationalist sentiments that really aren't that logical. Because Mr. X from newspaper Y said this, that means it will work. Not really. For one, you and others who claim the CFL isn't an inferior league compared to the NFL is ridiculous. Different styles of play, yes. Different levels of performance, definitely.

Another NHL team in the GTA would instantly play second fiddle to the Leafs, seeing how the Greater Golden Horseshoe is Leafs territory. I would guess this other team would most likely be universally reviled by the majority of Leaf fans as well. Look at any dual franchise city in any league and one team is always far and away the more popular of the two or three options that exist in said city. Not to mention how ingrained the Leafs are into Toronto's sporting history as well as the infringement on marketing rights that MLSE will claim should a second team ever try to step foot in the GTA.

Also, apologies for using the term r*tard. Didn't mean to offend anybody.
 
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Big Daddy said:
(ever hear of a Grey Cup party?)

Who won the Tom Pate award last season? (the Tom what award?)
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I've heard of plenty of Grey Cup parties as it happens - and I'm not even Canadian.

As for your second question - who won the Bart Starr award last season? (without Googling)
 
Big Daddy said:
Whats their favoutite party? Superbowl parties. (ever hear of a Grey Cup party?)

Who won the Tom Pate award last season? (the Tom what award?)
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I also had a grey cup party. Not sure who won the Tom Pate award, or what the hell that is, but I do know off the top of my head Jon Cornish, CFL running back won the Lou Marsh Award for the top canadian athlete.
 
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