Metrolinx: Sheppard East LRT (In Design)

[Palma]

By that logic, the only transit that does anything is the local bus. Why bother having anything else? RT refurbishment isn't starting until after the election.

Exactly. And then this also means that the subway also would not have done much unless people were within walking distance of that also. Enough of this nonsense that Scarborough has been screwed when its the exact opposite

 

[GTS]

They are coming along with the Grade Seperation at the GO Agincourt Station on Sheppard. The overpass is almost complete and soon road traffic is going to be diverted under the overpass. The Sheppart East LRT looks like it is being constructed under the overpass as well (concrete not poured yet but a curb has been poured). I don't know how easy the transfers between the GO line with the SELRT will work out once this grade seperation is complete- hope it is convenient.

 

[datamouse]

They are coming along with the Grade Seperation at the GO Agincourt Station on Sheppard. The overpass is almost complete and soon road traffic is going to be diverted under the overpass. The Sheppart East LRT looks like it is being constructed under the overpass as well (concrete not poured yet but a curb has been poured). I don't know how easy the transfers between the GO line with the SELRT will work out once this grade seperation is complete- hope it is convenient.

The concrete base has been put in and it shouldn't be too long till the southern side lanes open to traffic to allow the work to begin on the northern half.

 

[nfitz]

I don't know how easy the transfers between the GO line with the SELRT will work out once this grade seperation is complete- hope it is convenient.

Here is the original design from the EA:

Looks like they are following it from Drum's recent photos (in the GO Construction projects thread). So about 100 metres from where you cross Sheppard from the platforms along the north sidewalk to the entrance.

 

[andrewpmk]

Here is the original design from the EA:

Looks like they are following it from Drum's recent photos (in the GO Construction projects thread). So about 100 metres from where you cross Sheppard from the platforms along the north sidewalk to the entrance.

This is not "LRT". This is the exact same thing that they built on St. Clair, with tiny platforms for stops and stops at every minor intersection, except it has room to couple two streetcars together for higher capacity (which they did decades ago). St. Clair will be getting the new streetcars anyway which are basically same as the "Transit City" ones except for different gauge. The so-called "LRT" on Sheppard is vastly inferior to Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa, and Los Angeles and needs to go back to the drawing board.

 

[nhui06]

I agree with the above poster that what Metrolinx has in mind for the Sheppard LRT is really a streetcar line. There are way too many stops; my understanding is that they plan to use the Sheppard LRT to replace the buses.. but that is what streetcar lines do! To make this line effective and closer towards what a subway line would have done, they need to run the LRT like an express bus (i.e. follow the 190 Rocket route). While Metrolinx claims the station spacing is about 400m, this is not true. For example Palmdale to Warden is about 280 m, while Warden to Bay Mills is about 300 m.

Here are my ideal stations (17 stops):

- Don Mills
- Consumer Road
- Victoria Park
- Pharmacy
- Warden
- Birchmount
- Allanford (not a major intersection, but currently a stop on the 190 because of Agincourt Mall and a senior home, plus lots of condo development nearby)
- Kennedy
- Agincourt Go Station
- Midland
- Brimley
- McCowan
- Shorting Rd (not a major intersection, but has a lot of industrial buildings here, so lots of workers)
- Markham
- Progress (connect to Scarb LRT)
- Neilson
- Morningside

They then need to run local buses between Meadowvale to STC (via Sheppard and Brimley) around 12 mins during rush hour, and 20 mins during off-peak. A 2nd bus will run from STC up Brimley to Sheppard to Don Mills Station with a similar time schedule. This way, local stops are served, while the LRT can do its job as being an express route. Get a deal with UTSC so they can extend the tracks south on Morningside for 2 stops (Military Trail and UTSC) to get even higher ridership.

 

[M II A II R II K]

They'll probably have it stop at red lights between stops as well.

 

[Thoughtless Miscreant]

While Metrolinx claims the station spacing is about 400m, this is not true. For example Palmdale to Warden is about 280 m, while Warden to Bay Mills is about 300 m.

Yeah and Midland to Brimley is 850m. It's called an average.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Yeah and Midland to Brimley is 850m. It's called an average.

The distance between the King and Queen Subway stations are about 400m. South of Bloor, the distances between the Subway stations are about 400m±. Between Bay and Bloor-Yonge stations, even less.

 

[lead82]

Yes, which is why 400m average is decieving. What is the median stop spacing?

The Downtown Toronto subway spacing is beyond ridiculous. No other city has stops that close together. Not even New York, which is far denser. If we built fewer stops on our network we could have a bigger network serving more people with faster travel time. I am dissappointed that the LRT lines will have such close stops and that with the new LRT vehicles for the legacy network, the stop spacing wont be reevaluated. The Spadina line could easily cut back the stops by a third. Sussex Av being one example.

 

[car4041]

The Downtown Toronto subway spacing is beyond ridiculous. No other city has stops that close together. Not even New York, which is far denser.

I'm sorry, but this is complete nonsense. 400m spacing can be found in New York (e.g. 18th St to 23rd St on the 1 line); Chicago has several examples of sub-300m spacing in the Loop; in Boston, the Red Line from Park St to Downtown Crossing is 175m; there are several cases of sub-400m spacing in central London; and Paris is known for its extremely close spacing.

And in any case, the subway stops in downtown Toronto are placed exactly where they should be: at each of the major commercial streets that has a streetcar line. Calling this spacing "ridiculous" suggests that you don't understand how the city works. Let's say we close Queen station because it's ridiculously close to King and Dundas. Now the Queen streetcar, with its huge ridership, loses its connection to the subway; furthermore, everyone who currently uses Queen station will add to the crowding at Dundas and King stations (as if King had any capacity to spare). All to save, what, 1 minute for people heading to Union?

If we built fewer stops on our network we could have a bigger network serving more people with faster travel time.

So if they left out Wellesley, Rosedale, and Summerhill when they built the original Yonge subway, we'd somehow have a bigger network today? I really doubt it.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I think the distance between the Bay station and the Yonge-Bloor station on the 2 Bloor-Danforth Subway is around 300m±. That's very close.

 

[Rainforest]

Most of subway systems have very close station spacing within the CBD (usually, the oldest part of the subway network) and wider spacing in the outer sections. There are two reasons for that.

The first reason is historical: when the first section of a subway line is built, it usually has modest ridership and needs to attract all possible riders to be justified; the travel time is not a concern at that point since the line is short anyway. So, the stations are spaced closely.

As the line gets extended, travel time becomes a concern as well as the cost of adding stations. Those concerns are not balanced by the potential loss of a few riders due to skipping some minor stations, as the line has established decent ridership already. So, the new stations are spaced farther apart.

The second reason is that most of stations within the CBD are well used anyway (in particular, that applies to all YUS stations south of Bloor).

Quite obviously, the existing subway stop spacing south of Bloor cannot be used as a pattern for the optimal stop spacing on the suburban transit lines such as Sheppard; as the density and travel patterns are totally different there.

 

[Rainforest]

This is not "LRT". This is the exact same thing that they built on St. Clair, with tiny platforms for stops and stops at every minor intersection, except it has room to couple two streetcars together for higher capacity (which they did decades ago). St. Clair will be getting the new streetcars anyway which are basically same as the "Transit City" ones except for different gauge. The so-called "LRT" on Sheppard is vastly inferior to Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa, and Los Angeles and needs to go back to the drawing board.

There is some truth in this statement. But I think the main difference between Sheppard LRT and the LRT systems in Calgary or Edmonton (and the planned Ottawa LRT) is that LRT lines in all those cities go through the CBD. Even though those systems have on-street sections, they function like a light metro, getting not only walk-in riders but also those transferring from buses or driving to an LRT station. Since they pass through the CBD, decent demand level is guaranteed.

In contrast, Sheppard East LRT is not going to serve any major destinations. Don Mills Stn is just a transfer point for the majority of riders. UofT Scarborough (if the line goes there) and STC (even if the line passed through it) are destinations but they are no match for CBD.

So, TTC and / or Metrolinx might be concerned that Sheppard East LRT is not going to get many riders transferring from buses (and none from park-and-ride) anyway; even if it is designed as a fast trunk line. Probably, that's why they gear the design towards a streetcar line in dedicated lanes, but with rather frequent stop spacing. That way, they can at least save some operating costs by not having to run parallel bus service. I doubt that it is a good idea; but they have their constraints and must address them.

 

[Jaye101]

Sadly, I agree with this.

If you're a Scarborough resident, the Sheppard and Eglinton LRTs won't do much for you unless you live within walking distance of those lines. The RT refurbishment won't do much either. And the transition is going to be brutal. There is political hay to be made here.

I do believe that Ford should have taken the Stintz compromise.

Ok, the Eglinton LRT has 5km within Scarborough. Sheppard has 12km. The RT with the extension is another 9km of increased and new transit connections. This comes to a total of 26 km of Light Rail Transit for Scarborough alone. With new Transfer nodes at Sheppard Ave and Markham Road, and at Kennedy stations.

This system will create new links to buses in the neighbourhoods of Malvern, Agincourt, Centennial College area, Scarborough Centre, Clairlea, Golden Mile, Highland Creek, Tam O Shanter, Dorset Park, Bendale and even neighbourhoods not directly on the lines such as Rouge Valley and Morningside Heights.

This will serve as the beginning of a paradigm shift for Scarborough. Making it far more attractive than other areas in the GTA for residential and office development. Mississauga will really lose speed to Scarborough in the coming years because it is not building nearly as much transit.

26 km of LRT is not to be downplayed in the Scarborough context. It really changes everything in terms of how the average Scarborough resident who uses transit, gets around. It creates development nodes at very convenient points for redevelopment: Golden Mile, Markham & Sheppard (perfect spot for a more urban Scarborough City Centre), and Kennedy Station. With various connections to GO lines at Kennedy and Agincourt GO stations.

This is not a small feat.