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Baby, we got a bubble!?

Excellent analysis. These doom'n'gloomers just don't get it!

Don't these doom'n'gloomers understand that it is different this time?


many many moons ago, when I didn't have a single grey hair and had not even heard of the word 'wrinkle' and before I was 'seduced' into coming to 'sunny' Canada, I used to live in England.

One of the saying, among many others, was that if you live like a chicken, then, you are going to die like a chicken.

Stay on the sidelines, then, you are going to miss the party and then you are going to have 'big' regrets to no avail.
 
many many moons ago, when I didn't have a single grey hair and had not even heard of the word 'wrinkle' and before I was 'seduced' into coming to 'sunny' Canada, I used to live in England.

One of the saying, among many others, was that if you live like a chicken, then, you are going to die like a chicken.

Stay on the sidelines, then, you are going to miss the party and then you are going to have 'big' regrets to no avail.


Sure. But for every chicken there is a gambler, heading towards gambler's ruin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler's_ruin

As long as someone is properly diversified, with 30% in RE, then they'll be fine. But if they are substantially in RE, and speculating on margin, then they will wake up from the party with a nasty hangover.
 
for those who talking about bubble maybe time for you to sell when markets prices are the strongest,you can buy back in when the correction has completed its course.Sell high buy low or all of you going to keep your overprice units and face the outcome..
 
I would not characterize buy low sell high as a particularly useful long-term strategy in real estate. Perhaps flippers employ such a method and successfully during market up-swings. However, as sure as the sun will rise these people are the first to go under when market conditions become unfavourable.
 
for those who talking about bubble maybe time for you to sell when markets prices are the strongest,you can buy back in when the correction has completed its course.Sell high buy low or all of you going to keep your overprice units and face the outcome..


yes, i diversified some of my portfolio.

unfortunately, transaction costs of approx 10% of gross and crystallization of capital gains makes it unfeasible to sell all
 
The problem with the crash - there needs to be one of the following things to happen

The last few months have been rediculous. I saw detached homes in similiar area sell for a spread of 100k or 20%.. 440 in march, 540 i n June. crazy!
 
Good article/analysis:

Will the housing boom last indefinitely?

Every time it seems the Canadian real estate market is about to be torpedoed by higher interest rates, events around the world conspire to keep a lid on increases and spur a new round of furious buying among house hunters.

But does that mean the housing boom will last indefinitely?

“The misfortunes of other nations prolonged the real estate boom here at home, but it is hardly a secret that Canadians, including the governor of their central bank, are becoming increasingly anxious regarding current housing valuations,†CIBC World Markets economist Bejamin Tal wrote in a note Thursday.

While the world’s economic and political situation may not settle down anytime soon, Mr. Tal said the risk to the Canadian housing market isn’t actually as high as some think. That’s because the focus is often on average prices, which make things look a lot scarier than they actually are.

“Is it a bubble? Glancing at popular metrics such as the price-to-income ratio or the price-to-rent ratio, it is tempting to conclude that the housing market is already in clear bubble territory and a huge crash is inevitable,†he wrote.

“Tempting, but probably wrong. When it comes to the Canadian real estate market at this stage of the cycle, any statement based on average numbers can be hugely misleading. The truth is buried in the details—and there the picture is still not pretty, but much less alarming.â€

While the average house price is still climbing by 8.6 per cent on a year-over-year basis, that number drops to 5.6 per cent if you exclude Vancouver. Pretend Toronto doesn’t exist either, and you get to 3.7 per cent.

Within Vancouver, the gap between average and median prices is near an all-time high – meaning the high dollar sales are skewing the average prices higher.

“So what makes Vancouver abnormal is the high end of its property market,†he said.

“So looking beyond the average price numbers reveals a highly segmented and multi-dimensional market that is probably influenced by different forces. But even a multidimensional market can overshoot—and the likelihood is that prices in the Canadian market and its sub-segments are higher than what can be explained by factors such as income growth, rent and household formation.â€

He said given those variables, the market is bound to correct. For that to happen, he said interest rates need to spike quickly and/or high-risk mortgages run into trouble.

“In Canada, a sharp and brisk tightening cycle is unlikely. The market expects a gradual increase in short-term rates in the coming years,†he said. “The rising number of mortgage holders that carry a variable rate mortgage will be the first to feel the pain, but if history is any guide, they will return quickly to the comfort of a five-year fixed rate the minute the Bank of Canada starts hiking.â€

Meanwhile, he found that the number of Canadians who could run into mortgage trouble is relative low.

“Households with both low equity positions and high debt-service ratios, we found that this fragile segment of the market accounts for only 4.6 per cent of total mortgages – a number that has been on an upward trend over the past few years,†he said.

“Shock the system with a 300-basis-points rate hike and that number would rise to a still-tempered 6.5 per cent. Historically, even in that group, the default rate has been well below 1 per cent. Thus, short of a huge macro shock, there does not appear to be the risk of large scale forced selling that would typically be the trigger for a precipitous plunge in the national average house price.â€

His conclusion? While house prices are likely to move lower as interest rates climb, the “national pace of correction is likely to be gradual. That could still entail a period in which housing underperforms other assets as an investment class, until rising incomes and a tame prce trajectory brings the market back to equilibrium.â€
 
“Shock the system with a 300-basis-points rate hike and that number would rise to a still-tempered 6.5 per cent. Historically, even in that group, the default rate has been well below 1 per cent. Thus, short of a huge macro shock, there does not appear to be the risk of large scale forced selling that would typically be the trigger for a precipitous plunge in the national average house price.”

That seems to agree with what I'd been saying before. Increase the interest rate by 2% in the next few years, and the market would be pretty healthy (assuming there was no other economic disaster). Increase the rate by 4% in the next few years, and we'd probably have a problem. Not humungous numbers of defaults necessarily, but a big hit to the market nonetheless. Increase it by 3% and we'd be somewhere in between.
 
“Shock the system with a 300-basis-points rate hike and that number would rise to a still-tempered 6.5 per cent. Historically, even in that group, the default rate has been well below 1 per cent. Thus, short of a huge macro shock, there does not appear to be the risk of large scale forced selling that would typically be the trigger for a precipitous plunge in the national average house price.â€

That seems to agree with what I'd been saying before. Increase the interest rate by 2% in the next few years, and the market would be pretty healthy (assuming there was no other economic disaster). Increase the rate by 4% in the next few years, and we'd probably have a problem. Not humungous numbers of defaults necessarily, but a big hit to the market nonetheless. Increase it by 3% and we'd be somewhere in between.

You seem to have rendered bears and doom and gloom sayers almost speechless.:)
 
Prices are set by the transactions of a very small subset of the market, and they are set by the interaction of supply and demand.

Mortgage rates are an important factor in demand but an increase in mortgage rates is not a pre-requisite for price decreases. US and other countries prices are down 25% nationwide, despite mortgage rate decreases and not increases.

btw, did no-one notice Tal's dig at recent Vancouver and Toronto price increases? He said that a 9% increase, a la Toronto, is alarming.

"“Tempting, but probably wrong. When it comes to the Canadian real estate market at this stage of the cycle, any statement based on average numbers can be hugely misleading. The truth is buried in the details—and there the picture is still not pretty, but much less alarming.â€

While the average house price is still climbing by 8.6 per cent on a year-over-year basis, that number drops to 5.6 per cent if you exclude Vancouver. Pretend Toronto doesn’t exist either, and you get to 3.7 per cent.


He said that a 9% increase, a la Toronto, is alarming.
 
Prices are set by the transactions of a very small subset of the market, and they are set by the interaction of supply and demand.

Mortgage rates are an important factor in demand but an increase in mortgage rates is not a pre-requisite for price decreases. US and other countries prices are down 25% nationwide, despite mortgage rate decreases and not increases.

btw, did no-one notice Tal's dig at recent Vancouver and Toronto price increases? He said that a 9% increase, a la Toronto, is alarming.

"“Tempting, but probably wrong. When it comes to the Canadian real estate market at this stage of the cycle, any statement based on average numbers can be hugely misleading. The truth is buried in the details—and there the picture is still not pretty, but much less alarming.â€

While the average house price is still climbing by 8.6 per cent on a year-over-year basis, that number drops to 5.6 per cent if you exclude Vancouver. Pretend Toronto doesn’t exist either, and you get to 3.7 per cent.


He said that a 9% increase, a la Toronto, is alarming.

Canadian business media and economists pontificating on the direction our housing market takes is truly analogous to the French debating the work of Hemingway or Fitzgerald on the eve of the German invasion in 1940.

The market is for the most part completely out of our local hands and at the mercy of far greater world financial and geopolitical issues.

Not sure how many of you travel abroad but the perception of Canada worldwide is almost non-existent. Nothing we do really matters on global scale and we will be handily swept up in the next tidal wave of sovereign defaults, structural failures and of course commodities markets wild fluctuation.

A peaceful, agro/petro nation of beavers. That's what we are to the world. Let's put in perspective.
 
"Not sure how many of you travel abroad but the perception of Canada worldwide is almost non-existent."

Funny you should say that...

I'm currently in the South of France (Provence), and we went out for dinner last night with an Israeli couple staying at the same B&B. They're totally in love with Toronto and list it as one of their favorite cities in the world.

The Swedish couple that sat at our table at breakfast spent half an hour discussing the pros and cons of socialized health care with the B&B owner (from the US) when they found out we were from Canada.
 

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