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Baby, we got a bubble!?

Thank you for your insights Paperchopper. I was not hoping for clairvoyence but for your educated best guess on what to do which you have provided.

While I don't share fully your apocolyptic views, and I desperately hope for all of us you are not correct, I do appreciate you at least expressing rationally why you conclude what you do.

Personally, gold makes no sense and it too is in bubble territory since it is bid far beyond its value for purely jewelry. I get in olden days where if there was a war and you had to move around, you could carry gold on your person. However, I fail to really understand it in the new World. Buying at these levels may be worth alot more of less worth paper currency if the World unfolds as you believe, but other than to have a small position, I cannot see it. To me this is akin to gambling if one puts more than 5% of ones worth in gold on the assumption it will skyrocket. However, maybe I will be proven wrong. I can understand owning oil better. At least there is some actual need/use for that commodity. Whether anyone will be able to afford it, that's another question.

My question about the C$/USD was not so much the absolute value but the trend you would forsee. Do you expect even with Helicopter Ben printing money that given that they are further down the road as it were, they are somewhat cushioned?

Since I am not Wall Street, nowhere near that smart, and also don't have the benefit of "insider information" nor the time to make big bets that may or may not make the market, I can only resort to a basket of risk spreading. I think most reasonable investors do this for as you say, none of us is clairvoyant and with all the meddling going on (read government in particular) it is hard to exactly predict what "should happen".

There are many interesting books that talk about the "Wave theory" and that R/E has a major correction every 70 years. So we have been due for the past 10 years anyhow. It would support your contention. The trouble is that each of these major wave correction has been every bit as catastrophic as you predict. The only thing was to be debt free as you suggest. So if we have a major correction, you may sadly be proven correct.
 
I follow this thread, and agree that we are in for some kind of correction. But when, and how long will it take? My challenge is this -- my wife and I currently rent a really sweet loft downtown, but she badly wants to buy. I've run the numbers, and we pay about 40% of what it would cost to own this place (including all costs, even using "emergency" mortgage rates), and maintain the freedom to move elsewhere (and be kicked out of course). It's a sweet deal. She has the ownership bug, and my efforts to persuade her to look at the facts don't seem to change her view. She feels that our life is somehow not complete until we have a mortgage like our other friends (and can paint walls, etc). I'm inclined to continue to resist, but neither of us want to wait much more than 2 years because we want to settle in and have a family. Most housing bubbles take several (e.g. 5) years to unwind. When are the politicians going to stop monkeying around with the housing market (or be forced to by the bond market)?

Any advice on what to do?

As my friend Warren B. said, "the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent".

We all agree that the market is overpriced and is due for a correction. The problem is no one knows when this correction will occur ( tomorrow?, next year? 10 yrs from now?).
So ponyboy, my suggestion is, have at least 10% deposit. Plan to stay in the place you purchase minimum 5 yrs. Purchase something you both like and move on with your life.
 
As I said before, Brampton is having a foreclosure crisis right now, everybody is walking away from their houses, the Brampton RE board hasn't posted numbers in 4 months (!!!!). Sales are down 70-80%. Unfinished houses. It's exactly like the RE crash in the US. But the RE boards are desperately trying to keep it hush hush, lol. Then Carney came out yesterday with his prophetic warning, Harper also rung the alarm bells, Flaherty too...... the end has come for Canadian RE.

Can you please provide the source of this crap? Brampton #'s are published as part of the TREB #'s. Show me the W-23 and W-24 #'s that are down 70-80%. I'm all for a balanced discussion, but when u spew shit, please back it up with facts.
 
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Can you please provide the source of this crap? Brampton #'s are published as part of the TREB #'s. Show me the W-23 and W-24 #'s that are down 70-80%. I'm all for a balanced discussion, but when u spew shit, please back it up with facts.

Here are the facts (as of end of Nov):

W23
2009 - Volume 4,162 sales - $1.328 B - Avg selling price $319k - Median $305
2010 - Volume 4,161 sales - $1.436 B - Avg selling price $345k - Median $332

W24
2009 - Volume 2,873 sales - $0.972 B - Avg selling price $338k - Median $320
2010 - Volume 3,152 sales - $1.133 B - Avg selling price $359k - Median $345

I'm no math expert but that doesnt look like 70% decline
 
Here are the facts (as of end of Nov):

W23
2009 - Volume 4,162 sales - $1.328 B - Avg selling price $319k - Median $305
2010 - Volume 4,161 sales - $1.436 B - Avg selling price $345k - Median $332

W24
2009 - Volume 2,873 sales - $0.972 B - Avg selling price $338k - Median $320
2010 - Volume 3,152 sales - $1.133 B - Avg selling price $359k - Median $345

I'm no math expert but that doesnt look like 70% decline

Thank You.
 
As my friend Warren B. said, "the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent".

We all agree that the market is overpriced and is due for a correction. The problem is no one knows when this correction will occur ( tomorrow?, next year? 10 yrs from now?).
So ponyboy, my suggestion is, have at least 10% deposit. Plan to stay in the place you purchase minimum 5 yrs. Purchase something you both like and move on with your life.

Or how the correction will occur (Overnight in a big crash? Swinging up and down like the market lately? Or as a slow lazy decline?).
 
As my friend Warren B. said, "the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent".

We all agree that the market is overpriced and is due for a correction. The problem is no one knows when this correction will occur ( tomorrow?, next year? 10 yrs from now?).
So ponyboy, my suggestion is, have at least 10% deposit. Plan to stay in the place you purchase minimum 5 yrs. Purchase something you both like and move on with your life.

Ric, let's be frank. You're a realtor, and realtors only get paid if there are sales.. No realtor will ever say "don't buy".

Your options of when the price decreases will are somewhat disingenuous. Tomorrow, next year, or 10 years? And how would you rate the likelihood of next year, vs 10 years?

To the OP...
You stated that your current rental costs are at 40% of your expected ownership costs. So for the OP, faced with even a zero price change guarantee, is the emotional payoff worth the extra money? Now consider your position if you add in various scenarios for prices changes (decreases) over various timeframes.

What your lady wants is not a house. What she wants is what the house represents (warmth, stability, etc). My advice? Take half of your the extra monthly costs of ownership and spend it on pampering her. Then let her understand that extra money (to pamper her, a gift, night out, extra vacation, etc) will not be there if you buy.
 
To the OP...
You stated that your current rental costs are at 40% of your expected ownership costs. So for the OP, faced with even a zero price change guarantee, is the emotional payoff worth the extra money? Now consider your position if you add in various scenarios for prices changes (decreases) over various timeframes.

What your lady wants is not a house. What she wants is what the house represents (warmth, stability, etc). My advice? Take half of your the extra monthly costs of ownership and spend it on pampering her. Then let her understand that extra money (to pamper her, a gift, night out, extra vacation, etc) will not be there if you buy.


i have to agree with daveto here ...

since your rental cost is only 40% of the ownership cost, that frees up alot of disposible income for either to use or save !

you may have done it already, but if you haven't, formally write out your monthly budget over the past year (or longer if you think it's good).
look at where all your monthly expenses are (discretionary and fixed) and how that compares to your income.

now if you were to buy, can your budget handle a 150% increase for housing expense ?!?
let's say you're renting a bachelor for $600/m, can you handle another $900 (@ $1500/m) for the warm and fuzzy feeling of ownership?
that's a dramatic difference, and let's not forget what happens when interest rates increase too !

rent control prevents you from seeing anything more than what the gov't allows.
for 2010, the guideline was 2.1 per cent. http://www.ltb.gov.on.ca/en/Key_Information/274235.html
for 2011, the 2011 guideline is 0.7 per cent. http://www.ltb.gov.on.ca/en/Key_Information/STDPROD_067677.html
 
Yeah, Ric, I don't believe those numbers for a second.

http://www.bramptonandarearealestate.com/2010_Residential.html

Straight from the horses mouth, no #'s released. Why on earth would they stop reporting #'s if they're all fine and dandy? I know people personally trying to sell and no calls, nothing.

I wouldn't be surprised if TREB didn't receive any #'s and started extrapolating sales figures from other data.

Go look at Craigslist Brampton -- barely any listings, and the listings that are there definitely do NOT correlate to a '330k' average selling price. Take a look at Caledon,

http://toronto.en.craigslist.ca/bra/reb/2106156635.html

6000 sq ft 2+ acres custom built Italian house with a marble bathroom, for $869k?

Don't 800 sq ft starter homes in downtown Toronto sell for $800k?

What's going on here? Something's not right... and I don't trust the realtors...
 
They didn't post on their website -- who knows, maybe whoever manages their website is off sick. Not posting on a website does not equal not releasing numbers. What about the median numbers posted above? You also can't use Craigslist to come up with median numbers.
 
Ric, can you use your realtor connections and try to call the Brampton RE board and ask them why they haven't published their #'s?

I'm just curious, because anecdotal reports from Brampton are in direct opposite of what those TREB #'s say, you can get a 6000 sq ft Italian Villa in Caledon for $870k now apparently, lots of foreclosures on CL, barely any listings, prices are very low on CL........... my friend can't sell his house.......... nor can my other friend's family....... they're already slashed prices 20%+.......................... Hrmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm? hm hm hm, Indeed Ric.

I call bullshit on those TREB #'s.
 
That's exactly what caused the mess-- government regulation. The US federal government created Fannie and Freddie, and they took any risk off the banks making mortgages. The same exact thing has happened in Canada with the CMHC-- the federal government has allowed the banks to make gigantic profits with absolutely no risk to them. Do you think the banks would have made even 10% of the loans they have the last 5 years had it not been for the CMHC? Repeat after me-- HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL NO!

Government attempts at socializing losses is at the root of all evil.


sorry but i have to partly disagree with you there.

sure gov't (ie Fannie and Freddie) had their part in the financial crisis,
but the repeal of the Glass–Steagall Act of 1933 and the securitization and derivatives are the bigger part when the 'asset' behind the paper was diced, sliced and chopped to 100:1 with the premise of removing/eliminating the risks to the IB
 
Here are the facts (as of end of Nov):

W23
2009 - Volume 4,162 sales - $1.328 B - Avg selling price $319k - Median $305
2010 - Volume 4,161 sales - $1.436 B - Avg selling price $345k - Median $332

W24
2009 - Volume 2,873 sales - $0.972 B - Avg selling price $338k - Median $320
2010 - Volume 3,152 sales - $1.133 B - Avg selling price $359k - Median $345

I'm no math expert but that doesnt look like 70% decline

The figures which Hodgkinsken posted are year to date, for W23/W24 and are taken from the TREB report. Iif you look at the groups of districts from the BREB reporting, W19,23,24,27,28,29, and compare Nov 2010 to Nov 2009, then the sales are 699 to 828 (a 15% drop in sales). Not quite the 70-80% drop that Paperchopper referenced, but also not the stable sales figures that Hodgkinsken posted

This presumes that the figures on TREB are indeed accurate, and that they've not been extrapolating the data due to the absence of data from BREB. If that is the case...well, that would be a bombshell that I think would shred any credibility about TREB figures. Frankly, I'd be shocked if they had been doing that. But it does look odd that BREB stopped reporting.

Finally, I'll note that these figures are for resales only. My understanding is that a large amount of the RE activity in Brampton in recent years has been new builds.
 

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