Woonerf: It's Dutch for smart city-building

[Admiral Beez]

Toronto is not the Netherlands. There isn't a city in the Netherlands that is remotely similar to Toronto. Toronto is more than what Hume can see from his downtown condo. How does someone living at Yonge and Steeles, or anywhere else outside the downtown core living in anyway a Dutch experience? In Toronto a huge number of us commute to work in our cars. If you were to ask the others stuck on public transit if they could afford it would they prefer to use a car, I reckon many would say yes. Let's stop looking at densely populated European cities and instead look at other North American cities that have a spread out population with strong dependence on cars to get around.

 

[waterloowarrior]

When you're at or near the top, looking at other North American cities would be going backwards...although NYC and MTL would be good examples to look at.

 

[kettal]

Toronto is not the Netherlands. There isn't a city in the Netherlands that is remotely similar to Toronto. Toronto is more than what Hume can see from his downtown condo. How does someone living at Yonge and Steeles, or anywhere else outside the downtown core living in anyway a Dutch experience?

And someone living in Nunavut will never swim in an outdoor pool. So therefore outdoor pools should be banned in all of Canada.

In Toronto a huge number of us commute to work in our cars. If you were to ask the others stuck on public transit if they could afford it would they prefer to use a car, I reckon many would say yes. Let's stop looking at densely populated European cities and instead look at other North American cities that have a spread out population with strong dependence on cars to get around.

Great idea! Let's take an example from that car dependant city that cured traffic problems by building highways. What was that city called again?

 

[jswag]

Toronto is not the Netherlands. There isn't a city in the Netherlands that is remotely similar to Toronto. Toronto is more than what Hume can see from his downtown condo. How does someone living at Yonge and Steeles, or anywhere else outside the downtown core living in anyway a Dutch experience? In Toronto a huge number of us commute to work in our cars. If you were to ask the others stuck on public transit if they could afford it would they prefer to use a car, I reckon many would say yes. Let's stop looking at densely populated European cities and instead look at other North American cities that have a spread out population with strong dependence on cars to get around.

Haha, I do hope you were being sarcastic. I'll assume you were.

Just because Yonge and Steeles is car dependant, doesn't mean downtown Toronto has to be. As the centre of the city, it should be setting an example of urbanism and pedestrianism that the rest of the region can follow. It starts at the core and spreads from there, much like our tall buildings and retail streets.

 

[junctionist]

Toronto can take lessons from Dutch, especially as it plans dense new urban neighbourhoods and deals with the parts of the city built before the time of the car. We can move away from the reactionaries who demand that everything accommodate cars for some reason and urban planning that forces people to start driving. Ask people stuck on in traffic on a highway if they'd prefer living closer to their jobs and taking the subway to work. I reckon many would say "of course".

Also, plenty of places in suburban Toronto are developing as places where you theoretically could live car-free with everyday stores, employment, and residential (especially along Yonge). There are always going to be laneways and pedestrian connections even in suburban Toronto where innovations like woonerfs could make sense.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Ask people stuck on in traffic on a highway if they'd prefer living closer to their jobs and taking the subway to work. I reckon many would say "of course".

It's not that easy. There are tons of examples where driving to work makes much more sense.

I live in Cabbagetown and work in Markham. My drive home today in the rain took 35 minutes door to door. Average commute is about the same both ways every day unless there's a blizzard (those are the work from home days). I used to work at Yonge and Lawrence and took the TTC everyday and the commute took as long or longer once you include the waiting for the never to arrive or overcrowded streetcars.

I'm not against promoting walkable, dense cities, I wouldn't live and own in Cabbagetown otherwise, but I do not think European cities built upon medieval origins reflect the realities of North American cities built around sprawl and car culture. If we don't like the sprawl and car culture, then you need to promote employers to stay in the city, and you need sufficient housing to give the employees somewhere to live, but we have some of the highest corporate property taxes in the GTA (my employer in Markham intentionally moved their office and plant from Markham and Sheppard to save significanty on property taxes). Furthermore, the city seems intent on building condos on top of all its commercial land, promoting the de-industrialization of Toronto instead of providing incentives for those lands to be used for employment growth. The factories that used to reside on those lands are still in the GTA, they haven't all moved production to China, but instead they're in Markham, Mississauga, Vaughan, etc.

Meanwhile the city seems intent on erasing their competitive advantage in residential property taxes, and in turn erasing the incentive to keep your employees in the city, by increasing taxes, and enacting more fees such as vehicle taxes and property transfer taxes. Also, the city does nothing to promote the building of market value rental housing stock for families (as opposed to one bedroom condos), thus pushing the city's potential employee pool further away.

If you want an urban city, you need to keep your workers and their employers in the city, and you do that by providing financial incentives. Vaughan, Markham, Mississauga, etc are all working hard to attract Toronto's employers away. In turn these outlining cities will take the employees away too. What is Toronto's plan to stop them?

 

[northstar]

Toronto can take lessons from Dutch...

I know there's this big love on in urban forums for all things Dutch, but has anyone actually lived there to know what their talking about?

I'll admit the Dutch have some good ideas, and the urban cores of cities in the Randstad have tremendous bike paths and good public transit. Outside of the urban cores however, the auto rules; and on any given day, traffic jams leading into Rotterdam and other major Dutch cities rival those seen in Toronto.
Dutch suburbs, while not as auto-centric as North America, are far more auto-centric than comparable European countries.
Dutch suburbanites prefer taking cars over public transit. Because couples typically work in different locations, this leads to even more traffic. I lived in Rotterdam for a year, so I know a little of what I'm talking about...

Regarding the woonerf zones, it sounds like a good idea in theory.
However the thought crosses my mind that the dead-end streets in Regent Park were initially thought to be pedestrian-centric and good city planning.
Time has proven us wrong on places like Regent Park, so it will be interesting to see whether woonerfs live up to all expectations...

 

[kettal]

It's not that easy. There are tons of examples where driving to work makes much more sense.

I live in Cabbagetown and work in Markham. My drive home today in the rain took 35 minutes door to door. Average commute is about the same both ways every day unless there's a blizzard (those are the work from home days). I used to work at Yonge and Lawrence and took the TTC everyday and the commute took as long or longer once you include the waiting for the never to arrive or overcrowded streetcars.

I'm not against promoting walkable, dense cities, I wouldn't live and own in Cabbagetown otherwise, but I do not think European cities built upon medieval origins reflect the realities of North American cities built around sprawl and car culture. If we don't like the sprawl and car culture, then you need to promote employers to stay in the city, and you need sufficient housing to give the employees somewhere to live, but we have some of the highest corporate property taxes in the GTA (my employer in Markham intentionally moved their office and plant from Markham and Sheppard to save significanty on property taxes). Furthermore, the city seems intent on building condos on top of all its commercial land, promoting the de-industrialization of Toronto instead of providing incentives for those lands to be used for employment growth. The factories that used to reside on those lands are still in the GTA, they haven't all moved production to China, but instead they're in Markham, Mississauga, Vaughan, etc.

Meanwhile the city seems intent on erasing their competitive advantage in residential property taxes, and in turn erasing the incentive to keep your employees in the city, by increasing taxes, and enacting more fees such as vehicle taxes and property transfer taxes. Also, the city does nothing to promote the building of market value rental housing stock for families (as opposed to one bedroom condos), thus pushing the city's potential employee pool further away.

If you want an urban city, you need to keep your workers and their employers in the city, and you do that by providing financial incentives. Vaughan, Markham, Mississauga, etc are all working hard to attract Toronto's employers away. In turn these outlining cities will take the employees away too. What is Toronto's plan to stop them?

What does this have to do with a few woonerfs in the West Donlands?

 

[Glen]

What does this have to do with a few woonerfs in the West Donlands?

As Admiral Beez pointed out, a plan is worthless if reality conflicts with it. Saying that we should have all these wonderful Jacobsonian mixed use neighbourhoods is useless unless there is a tax climate that supports it. 'City builders' in Toronto like to ignore this simple truth. The planning department is frequently asked to comment on the financial impact of development proposals, yet is ill equipped to do so. You may want woonerfs but we got onwetend beleid.

This should be of interest....
PROPERTY TAXES AND TRIPLE BOTTOM LINE EVALUATION

 

[SunriseChampion]

Yonge and Steeles, car dependent?

How lazy and impatient are people these days anyway? If you can't spit on it from your bedroom window it best be available online or else I gotta drive there, is it?

Would it at all ever be possible to work out solutions that are neither borrowed nor imposed inorganically and maybe just see what works best here? Sure, we're not Holland but we're not that akin to most North American cities either. Not the ones I've been to anyway.

 

[junctionist]

Even those in new neighbourhoods who commute longer distances by car out of necessity will still be able to do so. The idea isn't to recreate the Toronto Islands neighbourhood. But the planning ideas behind the new neighbourhoods are part of a greater group of ideas such as transit expansion and densification at existing stations. What can't be tolerated is underinvestment in such infrastructure. Also, drivers can't be so unwilling to accept changes and innovations in infrastructure. Never mind woonerfs, how many roundabouts do we have in Toronto?

 

[Glen]

Yonge and Steeles, car dependent?

How lazy and impatient are people these days anyway? If you can't spit on it from your bedroom window it best be available online or else I gotta drive there, is it?

Would it at all ever be possible to work out solutions that are neither borrowed nor imposed inorganically and maybe just see what works best here? Sure, we're not Holland but we're not that akin to most North American cities either. Not the ones I've been to anyway.

Why are you assuming that everyone is going south?

 

[kettal]

Why are you assuming that everyone is going south?

Yeah, especially when commercial property taxes are going north!

 

[SunriseChampion]

Why are you assuming that I'm assuming anything?

South, north...same thing at that particular intersection.

I know, I know. It's hard to do things when you can't see where you need to go from your front stoop.